Sturm's Morning After - Cowboys Defense Can't Stop Rodgers Late

1bigfan13 · Oct 9, 2017

Astonishing how many embarrassing, inexcusable losses have occurred under Jason Garrett's watch.

In 7 years he's literally doing things that all the other coaches (combined) in the 57 year history of the Cowboys didn't do.

Smitty · Oct 9, 2017

I'm not saying the pass play was the right call. I was screaming for run.

I'm just saying in retrospect that playcall did not cost us the game.

...

If we are gonna get into the merits of the call itself, I would say, as Bob did, that in a vacuum it's the right call. Situationally, not so great. But scoring is the absolutely end objective to that drive whether you leave 1:20 on the clock or 45 seconds. You MUST have the score.

If you think you have a sure thing, or close to it, with 1:20 left, I don't think it's that bad of a call.

....

My gripe would be more along the lines of, I just hate the fade. I don't know why it's considered, league wide, to be such a viable option for the redzone. But it is, that's not unique to here.

Cotton · Oct 9, 2017

mschmidt64 said:
I'm not saying the pass play was the right call. I was screaming for run.

I'm just saying in retrospect that playcall did not cost us the game.

...

If we are gonna get into the merits of the call itself, I would say, as Bob did, that in a vacuum it's the right call. Situationally, not so great. But scoring is the absolutely end objective to that drive whether you leave 1:20 on the clock or 45 seconds. You MUST have the score.

If you think you have a sure thing, or close to it, with 1:20 left, I don't think it's that bad of a call.

....

My gripe would be more along the lines of, I just hate the fade. I don't know why it's considered, league wide, to be such a viable option for the redzone. But it is, that's not unique to here.

Damn it, Smitty. You can't defend a call "in retrospect". That's stupid.

Chocolate Lab · Oct 9, 2017

mschmidt64 said:
Well I'm gonna have to rely on what Chocolate Lab, noted Garrett hater

Who, me?

Simpleton · Oct 9, 2017

1bigfan13 said:
Astonishing how many embarrassing, inexcusable losses have occurred under Jason Garrett's watch.

In 7 years he's literally doing things that all the other coaches (combined) in the 57 year history of the Cowboys didn't do.

10 home losses when scoring 30+, the Saints with their arguably worse defense only has 5, while the Lions rank 5th in that stretch with 3.

What's mind boggling about that is that we have done it in back to back weeks. It's taken half the league, or more even, almost a decade to do what we have done in back to back weeks.

I don't care what anybody says, the talent on defense is not historically bad to be allowing shit like this to happen and the fact that we have outscored the opponent something like 45-15 in the 1st half and had that flipped in the 2nd half makes me think it's at least 80% on the coaches.

Cowboysrock55 · Oct 9, 2017

mschmidt64 said:
I'm not saying the pass play was the right call. I was screaming for run.

I'm just saying in retrospect that playcall did not cost us the game.

It could have but we can't say for sure. I mean there is no way of knowing if we would have run the zone option instead of the fade. You run a trap instead and maybe we get 5 yards on the play. Green Bay is then forced to use their last time out. And then who knows what might happen next?

Your assumption is that we would have run a zone read play on first down if we didn't run the fade. But most people wanted a normal run from under center on that play. Which likely doesn't go all the way for a TD.

Texas Ace · Oct 9, 2017

Cowboysrock55 said:
Your assumption is that we would have run a zone read play on first down if we didn't run the fade. But most people wanted a normal run from under center on that play. Which likely doesn't go all the way for a TD.

Yup.

Smitty · Oct 9, 2017

Iamtdg said:
Damn it, Smitty. You can't defend a call "in retrospect". That's stupid.

You must not be understanding what I'm saying.

I'm saying, anyone who says that pass call cost us the game by stopping the clock, is incorrect.

You are free to argue it was the wrong way to play the percentages. I don't feel the need to get into that discussion.

But given our success running the ball, the RPO would have just as likely scored on second down as on third down. Rodgers would have been left with as much time, if not more. There is no way to say what the outcome of a second down run would have been, but we do know that the next run we had resulted in a TD.

It's also not very realistic to say that Prescott should have taken a knee at the one. That doesn't happen.

1bigfan13 · Oct 9, 2017

Iamtdg said:
Jesus Christ, if our coaches could only call plays in hindsight we wouldn't even be discussing this. Your point is invalid.

Or how about this. The NFL has great technology that they've been using for quite a while now that actually allows coaches to communicate with the QB.

A good HC would have been in his QBs ear telling him that if he or Zeke broke free on that run DO NOT SCORE. Go down at the 1 yard line. Because I've seen what #12 in green has done to my defense all afternoon and I also remember what he did to my defense last year with only :30 seconds to play.

So understanding that Dak going down at the 1 yard line opens the possibility of not scoring at all, a fumbled snap, etc. I still take that risk. Because I trust our offense a hell of a lot more than I trust our defense to stop Aaron Rodgers with 1:13 to play.

Easy decision, IMO.

Smitty · Oct 9, 2017

Cowboysrock55 said:
It could have but we can't say for sure. I mean there is no way of knowing if we would have run the zone option instead of the fade. You run a trap instead and maybe we get 5 yards on the play. Green Bay is then forced to use their last time out. And then who knows what might happen next?

Your assumption is that we would have run a zone read play on first down if we didn't run the fade. But most people wanted a normal run from under center on that play. Which likely doesn't go all the way for a TD.

How do you know? We have no idea what would have occurred.

All we have to go on is what happened.

Prescott picked up the first with his RPO. That would have let us continue to run the clock. That would have made the incomplete pass meaningless.

Instead, he went in for the TD.

Without knowing the outcome of this hypothetical second down run, there is no way to say that the second down pass attempt that stopped the clock cost us.

Smitty · Oct 9, 2017

1bigfan13 said:
Or how about this. The NFL has great technology that they've been using for quite a while now that actually allows coaches to communicate with the QB.

A good HC would have been in his QBs ear telling him that if he or Zeke broke free on that run DO NOT SCORE. Go down at the 1 yard line. Because I've seen what #12 in green has done to my defense all afternoon and I also remember what he did to my defense last year with only :30 seconds to play.

So understanding that Dak going down at the 1 yard line opens the possibility of not scoring at all, a fumbled snap, etc. I still take that risk. Because I trust our offense a hell of a lot more than I trust our defense to stop Aaron Rodgers with 1:13 to play.

Easy decision, IMO.

Yeah, I can't get behind this.

Have to score there.

Cotton · Oct 9, 2017

mschmidt64 said:
You must not be understanding what I'm saying.

I'm saying, anyone who says that pass call cost us the game by stopping the clock, is incorrect.

You are free to argue it was the wrong way to play the percentages. I don't feel the need to get into that discussion.

But given our success running the ball, the RPO would have just as likely scored on second down as on third down. Rodgers would have been left with as much time, if not more. There is no way to say what the outcome of a second down run would have been, but we do know that the next run we had resulted in a TD.

It's also not very realistic to say that Prescott should have taken a knee at the one. That doesn't happen.

Exactly. You would rather play hypotheticals using hindsight as your biggest ally.

1bigfan13 · Oct 9, 2017

mschmidt64 said:
Yeah, I can't get behind this.

Have to score there.

And what good did that score do us?

As soon as it happened I knew we were screwed.

Texas Ace · Oct 9, 2017

1bigfan13 said:
And what good did that score do us?

As soon as it happened I knew we were screwed.

I agree with Schmitty in that you can't just not score and I explained my reasoning already, but I do agree completely with your point on Garrett communicating with his QB.

The problem is, Garrett can never get the right message across to his QB whether it was Romo or now Dak because he is incapable of grasping the situation at hand.

If he's unaware of the situation he's facing, then you can't expect him to communicate the urgency of the matter to his QB.

Smitty · Oct 9, 2017

1bigfan13 said:
And what good did that score do us?

As soon as it happened I knew we were screwed.

It's a tough situation.

But you can't take a knee there and pass up on the points. Can you ever remember that happening for a team down by more than 3?

It's like just a cardinal rule, you have to take the points.

data · Oct 9, 2017

You guys should read this article I posted in the gameday chatter thread. Really sheds light on how sophisticated and meticulous the conversations get in these situations. Fine-tuned fucking machine the Broncos were. Contrast that to the low level of conversation and execution we have in Dallas and...well...that's why we haven't made an NFCC in a long time and Denver made two straight SBs.

http://m.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Clock-Management-Crucial-in-Cowboys-Win/4fbc87ef-13f4-4993-b588-7aee380d08d9

Smitty · Oct 9, 2017

Iamtdg said:
Exactly. You would rather play hypotheticals using hindsight as your biggest ally.

My ally to do what?

All I'm saying is that the pass play didn't cost us the game.

If you guys want to debate that it shows Garrett's mindset or whatever, have at it. I'm not getting into that.

No sense in debating with fanaticals. There is a discussion to be had on it.... but not with you and Texas Ace.

Texas Ace · Oct 9, 2017

mschmidt64 said:
It's a tough situation.

But you can't take a knee there and pass up on the points. Can you ever remember that happening for a team down by more than 3?

It's like just a cardinal rule, you have to take the points.

Right.

If you're down 3 you can take that chance because you know you're already in position to likely tie the game.

But when you're down 4 or more, you can't just take the TD opportunity for granted.

I can understand the logic in what 1big is saying and there are a lot of people who feel that way this morning, but I personally believe that you can't just assume you're going to get into the endzone when you absolutely have to have 6.

Cotton · Oct 9, 2017

mschmidt64 said:
My ally to do what?

All I'm saying is that the pass play didn't cost us the game.

If you guys want to debate that it shows Garrett's mindset or whatever, have at it. I'm not getting into that.

No sense in debating with fanaticals. There is a discussion to be had on it.... but not with you and Texas Ace.

You are trying to make a point using hindsight as your only talking point. That call hurt our chances... bad. You run the ball there 10 out of 10 times. There shouldn't even have been the option to pass. That's on the HC. Period. And, that's the only reason you are trying to make this ridiculous argument. Gotta defend your boy, even if it means creating an argument using hindsight. You can try to talk around that fact all you want, but that is all you're doing.

Smitty · Oct 9, 2017

Texas Ace said:
Right.

If you're down 3 you can take that chance because you know you're already in position to likely tie the game.

But when you're down 4 or more, you can't just take the TD opportunity for granted.

I can understand the logic in what 1big is saying and there are a lot of people who feel that way this morning, but I personally believe that you can't just assume you're going to get into the endzone when you absolutely have to have 6.

I completely agree. I texted my Packers fan co-worker as soon as we scored and said "Final: Green Bay 35, Dallas 31" or something like that. I also texted my dad and said "It won't take Rodgers more than 2 plays to cross midfield. The question left to be answered is whether he's gonna merely tie it, or win it."

There was no doubt there was too much time left.

But you can't pass up on the TD. It's insanity. You just have to hope your defense can hold.

The game management needs to be deeper into the quarter. You need to be running clock at the 5 minute mark, the 7 minute mark. You can't turn down points when it's gonna come down to execution on one or two plays with under a minute left.

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