The Gun Control Debate Thread

townsend

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I'm referring to the notion that gun control mitigates things like suicide and accidental shootings. My rights shouldn't be curtailed based on my neighbor's misuse of that right.
How do you define gun control? Is asking a person to be registered, licensed, and insured before they drive a vehicle car control? Because insurance is mandatory specifically because "dumbasses" will have accidents.
 

L.T. Fan

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How do you define gun control? Is asking a person to be registered, licensed, and insured before they drive a vehicle car control? Because insurance is mandatory specifically because "dumbasses" will have accidents.
I don't see this as a legitimate analogy to his response. Automobiles are licenced and registered and guns are licenced and registered. The person who doesn't acquire insurance penalizes themselves and puts others at risk but it doesn't keep his neighbor from buying a car. Putting additional restrictions on guns or banning them because of actions of others does affect people who are potential gun owners.
 

Kbrown

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so what're we talking about here? If we could start from scratch with gun control, who doesn't get a gun (age, level of criminal record, naturalized citizen/working visa/green card) and what procedures (certifications, training, paperwork, registration, etc) necessary to get one?
Maybe we could start with our culture of broken homes, violence, untreated mental illness, poverty, corruption...
 

Cowboysrock55

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How do you define gun control? Is asking a person to be registered, licensed, and insured before they drive a vehicle car control? Because insurance is mandatory specifically because "dumbasses" will have accidents.
Maybe we should do the same with people's right to vote.
 

townsend

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Maybe we should do the same with people's right to vote.
Well at the moment they don't let felons vote or own a gun. But they do allow them to drive a car. So there are some ways that constitutional rights are restricted more than car ownership.

Don't get me wrong, I'm middle of the road when it comes to gun control. But the "don't punish gun owners, for what other gun owners do" argument seems childish and petulant to me.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Don't get me wrong, I'm middle of the road when it comes to gun control. But the "don't punish gun owners, for what other gun owners do" argument seems childish and petulant to me.
I honestly think limiting people's rights needlessly is childish and petulant but that's probably why I'm Libertarian and you're a Democrat.
 

townsend

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I honestly think limiting people's rights needlessly is childish and petulant but that's probably why I'm Libertarian and you're a Democrat.
:lol You think I'm a democrat, just because I think people shouldn't be allowed to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre. I guess some of us crazy "statists" are out to take all your hard earned fire shouting liberties. Making a theatre safe is just compromising Liberty for safety after all.
 

Genghis Khan

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How do you define gun control? Is asking a person to be registered, licensed, and insured before they drive a vehicle car control? Because insurance is mandatory specifically because "dumbasses" will have accidents.
No, that's not what I'm talking about, I think that's pretty obvious.
 

Genghis Khan

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I get that. My post isn't really a direct response to yours. But, even the most ardent pro-gun person would likely be against handgun vending machines in a Chuck E Cheese, open carry fully automatic weapons in airplanes, and legal flamethrowers/grenades/car-mounted gun turrets Mad Max style.

Of course.
 

jsmith6919

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Cotton

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:lol You think I'm a democrat, just because I think people shouldn't be allowed to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre. I guess some of us crazy "statists" are out to take all your hard earned fire shouting liberties. Making a theatre safe is just compromising Liberty for safety after all.
You mean kinda like exposing our children to predators in bathrooms? I mean, it's the same thing, isn't it? Taking away a liberty from one small group of people for the safety of the whole village? It's the same damn thought process, yet you only like to use this line of logic when it fits what you want it to fit.
 

Cowboysrock55

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:lol You think I'm a democrat, just because I think people shouldn't be allowed to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre. I guess some of us crazy "statists" are out to take all your hard earned fire shouting liberties. Making a theatre safe is just compromising Liberty for safety after all.
:lol

Because you're for bigger government and more regulation, that's why you're a democrat. Jesus, we already have enough damn regulation and none of it works. But please, tell me more about how you think government should control everyone's lives.
 

Cowboysrock55

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:You think I'm a democrat, just because I think people shouldn't be allowed to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre.
Also your comparison is horrible. Shouting fire in a crowded theater creates an immediate risk of harm. It's why they carved out the exception to freedom of speech. Someone buying a firearm on the other hand creates no immediate risk of harm. A person has to take additional steps in order to create an immediate risk of harm. Such as shoot that gun at a person.

But please, tell me more about the Law. I love it.
 

townsend

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Also your comparison is horrible. Shouting fire in a crowded theater creates an immediate risk of harm. It's why they carved out the exception to freedom of speech. Someone buying a firearm on the other hand creates no immediate risk of harm. A person has to take additional steps in order to create an immediate risk of harm. Such as shoot that gun at a person.

But please, tell me more about the Law. I love it.
We're talking pretty abstractly about gun regulations, which makes it easier to straw man these conversations. So here's what regulations I'm for. Blacklisting people with misdemeanor domestic violence convictions, requiring higher levels of training specifically on the when deadly force is and isn't appropriate, requiring licensed carriers to purchase liability insurance, some reasonable waiting period that's likely already law. Much like the crowded theater analogy, I think these limitations prevent very real risks, because they identify and prevent people who have poor impulse control from getting ahold of a weapon and using it in when they would regret it later. It's not a perfect solution to anything but it would also similarly mitigate risk.

I'm neither for nor against assault weapons bans, since I don't see any purpose for private citizens to own these but also don't believe banning them would have prevented any tragedies.

I'm a pragmatist that believes in human rights, I'm an independent, and you know that, but misrepresenting my political alignment is a really easy way to ignore a nuanced view of politics.. Politics is too complicated for party politics and inflexibility. Just because you haven't grown out of a political alignment designed for college freshmen doesn't make me the bad guy for disagreeing with it. I just know the moon isn't made of cheese and living in a society of 300 million people requires certain rules and regulations in place.
 

NoDak

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I'm neither for nor against assault weapons bans, since I don't see any purpose for private citizens to own these but also don't believe banning them would have prevented any tragedies.
You also just regurgitate exactly what the left wants you to. Assault rifles were already banned long ago. An actual assault rifle is FULLY AUTOMATIC. Just because liberals and the media insist on continuing to call a semi automatic AR by that name because it sounds scarier and helps drive their agenda, doesn't make it any more true.
 

Cotton

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You also just regurgitate exactly what the left wants you to. Assault rifles were already banned long ago. An actual assault rifle is FULLY AUTOMATIC. Just because liberals and the media insist on continuing to call a semi automatic AR by that name because it sounds scarier and helps drive their agenda, doesn't make it any more true.
They also add on "high-powered" right before assault rifle to make them sound even scarier, even though a .223 is only a step up from a .22.
 

jsmith6919

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They also add on "high-powered" right before assault rifle to make them sound even scarier, even though a .223 is only a step up from a .22.
And quote the cyclic rate of the fully automatic version when they're talking about the semi-auto
 

mcnuttz

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Maybe we could start with our culture of broken homes, violence, untreated mental illness, poverty, corruption...
BO0om goes the dynamite.
 

Cowboysrock55

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We're talking pretty abstractly about gun regulations, which makes it easier to straw man these conversations. So here's what regulations I'm for. Blacklisting people with misdemeanor domestic violence convictions, requiring higher levels of training specifically on the when deadly force is and isn't appropriate, requiring licensed carriers to purchase liability insurance, some reasonable waiting period that's likely already law. Much like the crowded theater analogy,
You still don't understand the crowded theater exception to freedom of speech at all. That exception is made because it creates an immediate risk of harm. Meaning, once you yell fire in a movie theater, no other action is needed for harm to now be created.

Your comparisons with gun regulation do not compare in any way to that exception for freedom of speech. If you want to bypass the constitution your trying to do it the wrong way because of a lack of understanding of constitutional law. The act of selling a gun without any regulation or giving a person a gun does not create a immediate risk of harm, because there has to be additional steps taken to create harm to any person. Are you understanding the difference? If you want to ignore the constitution feel free, but you're going about it the wrong way.

I disagree with your regulations too. You shouldn't blacklist people with misdemeanor domestic violence convictions. Misdemeanor domestic violence at least in the State of Missouri doesn't even require a person to make physical contact with another person. All it means is that you placed a person in immediate apprehension of harm. Many of which cases were two people arguing and one thought they would gain an upperhand by calling the police. I could understand felony domestic violence because that requires some sort of actual physical harm being done to another person. But we already have felony laws for that reason.

I guess I can sit here and pick apart the rest of your proposals but waiting periods are fine. I don't really take issue with that. If you're going to a store to buy a guy, I can't imagine a scenario where you would need it immediately. Training is a waste of time and I think it would be abused pretextually to prevent individuals from being allowed to have a fire arm. Insurance companies already rape America, I'd prefer not to hand them another item where they can take everyone's money and almost never have to pay out on a policy.
 
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