2016 POTUS Election Thread

BipolarFuk · Jul 8, 2016

DLK150 · Jul 8, 2016

Jiggyfly said:
These weapons had chips in them as well the ATF supervisors chose not to arrest until it was too late.

Most of the buyers ended up prosecuted.

They also stopped OWR until it obviously went downhill and I'm 99% sure there are still some of them out there from F&F although I can't prove that because you wouldn't hear about it in the MSM.

Regardless, they were different programs under different presidents and the fact remains that the only deaths occurred under F&F because it was poorly run.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/06/26/the-5-biggest-differences-between-operation-fast-and-furious-and-operation-wide-receiver/

DLK150 · Jul 8, 2016

BipolarFan said:

I personally don't watch Faux News. I did and I also railed against The Patriot Act, which of course, has been renewed by the clown currently in office even though he said it would go bye-bye. He also said deficit spending was unpatriotic but once elected, it went on steroids. I supported Iraqi Freedom until I realized it used poor strategy. My nephew fought there from the beginning and did several tours. I could spent half an hour posting clips of the BS that the idiot from Hyde Park in Chicago spewed while running but I won't bother because I only stop here every couple of days now. It's out there though.

I thought Bush was a stupid, incompetent jackass that wasn't even qualified to run a MLB team, let alone run the country and I still think that. He handled the aftermath of 9/11 well and that was about it. It doesn't excuse Oblahblah's idiocy though.

I wouldn't want to see Dubyah back in the WH at all but if you really think Oblahblah is so much better, you've got party blinders on. Seven years later, we're still in "Recovery Summer". The main increase in GDP growth the last seven years has been from deficit spending and Federal Reserve manipulation. That's it.

That is all.

L.T. Fan · Jul 8, 2016

There is nothing outlandish about Fox news. They have a conservative agenda but other networks have their agendas as well. It's a matter of what your political cup of tea is. It's humorous to hear someone say they don't watch a given media then pronounce how bad they are. That approach to enlightenment is a contradiction in terms.
.

townsend · Jul 8, 2016

NoDak said:
Sometimes I think you are a mongoloid that was dropped on it's waterhead one too many times. Most times, actually.

Are you a poor Vietnamese boy they've only taught enough English to be repulsive?What do your surroundings look like? I'll call amnesty international.

Jiggyfly · Jul 8, 2016

DLK150 said:
They also stopped OWR until it obviously went downhill and I'm 99% sure there are still some of them out there from F&F although I can't prove that because you wouldn't hear about it in the MSM.

Regardless, they were different programs under different presidents and the fact remains that the only deaths occurred under F&F because it was poorly run.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/06/26/the-5-biggest-differences-between-operation-fast-and-furious-and-operation-wide-receiver/

I really have no issue with anything you said.

F&F was extremely flawed but is was piggybacking OWR which was led by the same guy which also let guns get across the border, as I said this was not some idea implemented by Obama.

Here are the main players all of these people were in the same jobs during OWR except for the acting cheif of the ATF.

Bill Newell was a major promoter of the strategy in Fast and Furious. Though he had
been the Special Agent in Charge in Phoenix for several years, he somehow failed to understand
the basic legal standards needed for interdicting firearms and questioning potential suspects.
According to testimony of the other ATF agents, Bill Newell did not have significant experience
as a case agent or working street operations. His inexperience at the field agent level may have
been a contributing factor to his ignorance of legal thresholds. Instructing his agents to abide by
incorrect standards was a costly mistake that prevented interrogation, disruption, and possible
arrest of straw purchasers.

In the ATF organizational hierarchy, Newell reported to Deputy Assistant Director
(“DAD”) William McMahon, whose supervisory responsibilities included the field offices along
the Southwestern border. McMahon served as the main link between the Phoenix Field Division
9

and ATF Headquarters, and therefore should have played an important role in relaying
information both up and down the chain of command. McMahon knew that no operational
safeguards were in place to prevent the firearms from traveling to Mexico. However, he did not
make any effort to stop the flow of guns, believing that it was not his job to interfere in Bill
Newell’s investigations.

Assistant Director Mark Chait and his superior, Deputy Director Hoover, had several
opportunities to put an end to the operation but failed to do so. Hoover knew that Newell had
employed risky tactics in the past as SAC yet failed to monitor him closely. Either Hoover did
not ask the right questions or simply turned a blind eye to the unavoidable reality that reckless
gunwalking tactics were being used again in Fast and Furious.

Though he had a distinguished background, knew little of the operational details of Fast
and Furious, and was committed to full cooperation with Congress, ultimately Acting Director
Kenneth Melson, as head of ATF, still bears a significant measure of responsibility for failing to
ensure that ATF headquarters personnel adequately supervised the Phoenix Field Division.

Here is the complete congressional report if you notice it was primarily run under regional supervision the same supervision as OWR.

http://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/7-31-12-FF-Part-I-FINAL-REPORT.pdf

Genghis Khan · Jul 9, 2016

L.T. Fan said:
There is nothing outlandish about Fox news. They have a conservative agenda but other networks have their agendas as well. It's a matter of what your political cup of tea is. It's humorous to hear someone say they don't watch a given media then pronounce how bad they are. That approach to enlightenment is a contradiction in terms.
.

Correct. People who rail against Fox news but don't recognize that most of the other outlets are subtly just as biased are sadly going through life completely blind.

The disheartening thing to me as a conservative is people who rail against Fox news do so under the guise of complaining that it's biased. THEY ARE ALL BIASED YOU GOD DAMN MORONS. Their real complaint isn't that it's biased, it's that it's conservative.

Not everyone wants to think like you, you thought-suppressing Nazis.

townsend · Jul 9, 2016

Genghis Khan said:
Correct. People who rail against Fox news but don't recognize that most of the other outlets are subtly just as biased are sadly going through life completely blind.

The disheartening thing to me as a conservative is people who rail against Fox news do so under the guise of complaining that it's biased. THEY ARE ALL BIASED YOU GOD DAMN MORONS. Their real complaint isn't that it's biased, it's that it's conservative.

Not everyone wants to think like you, you thought-suppressing Nazis.

I disagree with this, MSNBC is as bad as Fox News, but there are very few news outlets outside of North Korea that are so one sided, and so content to pander. Fox News is a fucking blight.

I kind of suspect that you're a current viewer. Because the first thing I notice with people (including people in my family) is how quick they are to call people "GOD DAMNED MORONS!"

There's a difference between personal bias that infuses the work of professional, and the theatrics that the Becks, Limbaughs, and Hannitys have been involved in (which probably doesn't even represent their own political opinions.) It's shock jocking dressed as a political dialogue, and the people who indulge in that garbage think that that's an acceptable way to discuss politics.

I know NPR's fresh air probably has a large population of liberals, but they aren't a pandering, insulting, race baiting, anger machine intent on making sure they don't challenge the least common denominator.

Genghis Khan · Jul 9, 2016

You, Townsend, are exactly what I'm talking about.

You suspect I'm a current viewer? You're fucking dead wrong. I don't watch Tv news. Not Fox or anything else. I loathe all of it.

God forbid someone challenge your narrow, closed mind with reality.

townsend · Jul 9, 2016

Genghis Khan said:
You, Townsend, are exactly what I'm talking about.

You suspect I'm a current viewer? You're fucking dead wrong. I don't watch Tv news. Not Fox or anything else. I loathe all of it.

God forbid someone challenge your narrow, closed mind with reality.

So you don't watch Fox News, but you think it's comparable to other news outlets that you also don't watch? No wonder you're content to insult people, rather than generate any kind of thoughtful commentary. Which means you're probably their target demographic. Not that liberals can't be insulting. That's why MSNBC exists, to cater to all the liberals who like to think everyone who disagrees with them is an idiot. It's not a political thing, it's a temperament thing.

I'm a fiscal conservative who's argued for gun rights, for libertarianism, against libertarianism, for feminism, against feminism, contributed to Ron Paul, Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders. I've voted in every damn election since 2012, never straight ticket. I've had to go as far as look up candidates on Facebook to see whether or not I should vote for them (because lower ticket candidates have very little available information.)

I'm probably voting for Gary Johnson this year (and voted for him in 2012), but would have picked Hillary in a second if Trump had a chance, and would have voted for Romney, Ryan, Rand Paul, and possibly Kasich over her. I like Sanders but am frankly relieved at where his revolution ended because I think he would have trouble adjusting to the demands of the presidency.

My views aren't that narrow. But Fox News is garbage, and perhaps the fact that you don't watch it is why you don't know that. Being open minded doesn't mean you have to take the middle of the road on every issue, it means taking a thoughtful approach to every topic, and I have seen plenty of Fox News and have seen it eat at the intelligence of people I respect. I know a good bit about cancer too, and I don't feel like it's open minded to take a centrist view on the merits or cancer either.

L.T. Fan · Jul 9, 2016

townsend said:
So you don't watch Fox News, but you think it's comparable to other news outlets that you also don't watch? No wonder you're content to insult people, rather than generate any kind of thoughtful commentary. Which means you're probably their target demographic. Not that liberals can't be insulting. That's why MSNBC exists, to cater to all the liberals who like to think everyone who disagrees with them is an idiot. It's not a political thing, it's a temperament thing.

I'm a fiscal conservative who's argued for gun rights, for libertarianism, against libertarianism, for feminism, against feminism, contributed to Ron Paul, Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders. I've voted in every damn election since 2012, never straight ticket. I've had to go as far as look up candidates on Facebook to see whether or not I should vote for them (because lower ticket candidates have very little available information.)

I'm probably voting for Gary Johnson this year (and voted for him in 2012), but would have picked Hillary in a second if Trump had a chance, and would have voted for Romney, Ryan, Rand Paul, and possibly Kasich over her. I like Sanders but am frankly relieved at where his revolution ended because I think he would have trouble adjusting to the demands of the presidency.

My views aren't that narrow. But Fox News is garbage, and perhaps the fact that you don't watch it is why you don't know that. Being open minded doesn't mean you have to take the middle of the road on every issue, it means taking a thoughtful approach to every topic, and I have seen plenty of Fox News and have seen it eat at the intelligence of people I respect. I know a good bit about cancer too, and I don't feel like it's open minded to take a centrist view on the merits or cancer either.

You have an opinion of course and are entitled to both believe and express it but you are not content to do that.

You always take to the next level by making a subjective pronouncement that not only are you correct but any different point of view cannot possibly be correct. The post I am responding to is a good example of what I am saying. Folks would take you more seriously if you just gave your opinion and the reasons why.

Riding the issue to the point of feeling it necessary to proclaim your virtues and then denigrate an opposing view is over the top.

townsend · Jul 9, 2016

L.T. Fan said:
You have an opinion of course and are entitled to both believe and express it but you are not content to do that.

You always take to the next level by making a subjective pronouncement that not only are you correct but any different point of view cannot possibly be correct. The post I am responding to is a good example of what I am saying. Folks would take you more seriously if you just gave your opinion and the reasons why.

Riding the issue to the point of feeling it necessary to proclaim your virtues and then denigrate an opposing view is over the top.

I'd say that it's a fair criticism that my contempt of Fox News bleeds over into judgements of those who defend it. I think it's comparable to a person who's had friends and family who struggle with alcoholism might have a less than even handed view of the alcohol industry.

Until Glenn Beck left Fox News and my father was less incentivized to leave it on the background, my father became rabid. In my generation this is not an isolated incident, lonely parents left alone with Fox News too long, frequently get so angry that they're incapable of pleasant conversations anymore. This happened a lot to friends of mine who had joined the military, they'd talk to their father over the phone or over leave one day, and that person would be unrecognizable.

That's a scary thing, especially if you have parents of advancing years, when they indulge in something so vitriolic that they become a completely different person from the one you grew up with.

So much as if someone might defend binge drinking as a harmless activity (and it can be if it isn't a habit), for someone who's seen how that addiction can destroy a person, I have a strong, righteous hatred for it.

L.T. Fan · Jul 9, 2016

townsend said:
I'd say that it's a fair criticism that my contempt of Fox News bleeds over into judgements of those who defend it. I think it's comparable to a person who's had friends and family who struggle with alcoholism might have a less than even handed view of the alcohol industry.

Until Glenn Beck left Fox News and my father was less incentivized to leave it on the background, my father became rabid. In my generation this is not an isolated incident, lonely parents left alone with Fox News too long, frequently get so angry that they're incapable of pleasant conversations anymore. This happened a lot to friends of mine who had joined the military, they'd talk to their father over the phone or over leave one day, and that person would be unrecognizable.

That's a scary thing, especially if you have parents of advancing years, when they indulge in something so vitriolic that they become a completely different person from the one you grew up with.

So much as if someone might defend binge drinking as a harmless activity (and it can be if it isn't a habit), for someone who's seen how that addiction can destroy a person, I have a strong, righteous hatred for it.

Doesn't have a thing to do with what I said.

Jiggyfly · Jul 9, 2016

Genghis Khan said:
Correct. People who rail against Fox news but don't recognize that most of the other outlets are subtly just as biased are sadly going through life completely blind.

The disheartening thing to me as a conservative is people who rail against Fox news do so under the guise of complaining that it's biased. THEY ARE ALL BIASED YOU GOD DAMN MORONS. Their real complaint isn't that it's biased, it's that it's conservative.

Not everyone wants to think like you, you thought-suppressing Nazis.

Key word subtly as biased.

Fox news is unabashedly bias and many times actively twisting the facts.

I watch Fox because I actually want to hear both sides and come to my own conclusions.

It's no wonder Trump can make up so much and get away with it because Fox has been skirting that line so long its now normal.

boozeman · Jul 9, 2016

I don't know how you guys find the energy to actually give a shit which one of these horrific candidates wins the election and actually argue about it.

Jiggyfly · Jul 9, 2016

townsend said:
I'd say that it's a fair criticism that my contempt of Fox News bleeds over into judgements of those who defend it. I think it's comparable to a person who's had friends and family who struggle with alcoholism might have a less than even handed view of the alcohol industry.

Until Glenn Beck left Fox News and my father was less incentivized to leave it on the background, my father became rabid. In my generation this is not an isolated incident, lonely parents left alone with Fox News too long, frequently get so angry that they're incapable of pleasant conversations anymore. This happened a lot to friends of mine who had joined the military, they'd talk to their father over the phone or over leave one day, and that person would be unrecognizable.

That's a scary thing, especially if you have parents of advancing years, when they indulge in something so vitriolic that they become a completely different person from the one you grew up with.

So much as if someone might defend binge drinking as a harmless activity (and it can be if it isn't a habit), for someone who's seen how that addiction can destroy a person, I have a strong, righteous hatred for it.

My grandmother did the same thing and she is black. :lol

She has alwats had a republican lean but that's a discussion for another topic.

DLK150 · Jul 10, 2016

Jiggyfly said:
I really have no issue with anything you said.

F&F was extremely flawed but is was piggybacking OWR which was led by the same guy which also let guns get across the border, as I said this was not some idea implemented by Obama.

Here are the main players all of these people were in the same jobs during OWR except for the acting cheif of the ATF.

Here is the complete congressional report if you notice it was primarily run under regional supervision the same supervision as OWR.

http://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/7-31-12-FF-Part-I-FINAL-REPORT.pdf

All I'm saying is that OWR and F&F are not one and the same and they were implemented differently. One involved at least some form of tracking and one was just throwing **** against the wall and hoping something stuck.

With all due respect, I will take any House report with a grain of salt. Most of them are corrupt A-holes that, even if they run on a premise of good intentions, eventually get sucked into the system. Yeah, let's investigate our cronies, I promise we will do anything possible to weed out any wrong doing. BS. I've been following politics for over forty years, was a lifelong Democrat until 2008 and while there are some things that happened that were at least based on good intentions, at least 75% of it is BS. You don't see a bill sponsored by either party that isn't over 1,000 pages long and is filled with pork. I could name a myriad of them but it's late and I'm tired. There is a reason why politicians have been stereotyped as crooks for a hundred years or longer.

Anyway, to quote George Carlin, "It's a big club and you and I are not in the big club." Quit putting faith in pathological liars that have screwed the American people time and again over the years and absolved themselves of any wrongdoing time and again.

Hilliary is as big a crony capitalist as there is out there. Trump is a center left liberal playing a conservative to people that are pissed off about the way some things have been going. He knows just what to say to play peoples' emotions. They're both manipulators. I believe in the system. I don't believe in 90% of the people "running" it, regardless of party affiliation. It's taken over thirty years but I am burned out and have lost all faith in it and no, I'm not a pessimist or an anarchist. I've just seen enough to know the whole thing is just a sham.

Again, JMO.

boozeman · Jul 14, 2016

Tim Tebow is going to speak at the RNC.

Ffffffuuuuuuuu

1bigfan13 · Jul 14, 2016

boozeman said:
Tim Tebow is going to speak at the RNC.

Ffffffuuuuuuuu

You just bought yourself a ticket to eternal damnation with that little tantrum. Hope it was worth it.

L.T. Fan · Jul 14, 2016

I don't understand the turmoil with Tebow. What has he ever done except being an upstanding citizen. Pro footballer? No but as a person he seems to lean toward the preferable conduct and behavior role.

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