A week of LGBTQ acceptance education in a middle school. Really?

Kbrown

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Exactly. There is a hardcore move to remove genders completely from society. That is very damaging to everyone.
Well, gender is a construct you see. Your sons wouldn't gravitate toward toy trucks if you hadn't conditioned them that way, and if you suggest otherwise, you are a bigot.

But somehow people born men and raised as men can feel like women and have an uncontrollable urge to wear dresses, and if you suggest otherwise, you are a bigot.

Coherence, yay.
 

townsend

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Look it, these reactionary laws were a response to other places making it a point to publicly affirm the right for trannies to pee in peace. Both sets of laws are symbolic and asinine in my eyes.

I think the reason you are seeing push-back is the sense that there must be new laws attached to every new group with a tough back story. It seems that each successive civil rights fight is over more and more obscure stuff. By 2066, if climate change hasn't killed us, we will be in a fight over paying reparations to gingers for all the jokes they've had made at their expense. And people who think maybe ginger reparations aren't worth it will be doxxed on social media and compared to the great bigots of the past.

It is possible to set up a support system for people without creating new, stupid laws.

People get kicked out of their families for dating black men, converting to Lutheranism, etc. No new laws required.
But one of the reasons that the laws to protect trans were created was because of the number of trans people who were harassed or assaulted trying to use their preferred restroom.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Herman-Gendered-Restrooms-and-Minority-Stress-June-2013.pdf

Those laws were created to protect actual victims. The North Carolina etc laws were created as a backlash, and that's the problem. One side is fighting for a group of people who are being harassed and assaulted. The other is just being spiteful, or worse trying to create contrived hypothetical scenarios as a counterpoint to actual violence that really happens.

It's true that people who marry outside of race can be rejected, they won't likely also face the same levels of violence, harassment, and discrimination on a daily basis (anymore) that trans people do currently. Really I did miss speak when I said "unparalleled discrimination" because it contained the tacit assumption that that would be a trans person's only minority group. I imagine being black and trans would only compound both forms of discrimination exponentially.
 

townsend

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Well, gender is a construct you see. Your sons wouldn't gravitate toward toy trucks if you hadn't conditioned them that way, and if you suggest otherwise, you are a bigot.

But somehow people born men and raised as men can feel like women and have an uncontrollable urge to wear dresses, and if you suggest otherwise, you are a bigot.

Coherence, yay.
Funny enough this is where old feminism's perception of gender really falls by the way side. The basic idea now, as far as I can tell, is that gender is an inherent identity but the expectations of gender are artificial.

At some point in my life I could cry, it's a physical act I was capable of. Expectation of gender caused me to force myself to never cry, and now it's just a thing I'm incapable of. That's a societal expectation for gender not an inherent trait of gender.

The problem isn't letting someone have a gender identity, it's attempting to stifle any tendencies that don't match their gender, for the sake of conformity.
 

Kbrown

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But one of the reasons that the laws to protect trans were created was because of the number of trans people who were harassed or assaulted trying to use their preferred restroom.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Herman-Gendered-Restrooms-and-Minority-Stress-June-2013.pdf

Those laws were created to protect actual victims. The North Carolina etc laws were created as a backlash, and that's the problem. One side is fighting for a group of people who are being harassed and assaulted. The other is just being spiteful, or worse trying to create contrived hypothetical scenarios as a counterpoint to actual violence that really happens.

It's true that people who marry outside of race can be rejected, they won't likely also face the same levels of violence, harassment, and discrimination on a daily basis (anymore) that trans people do currently. Really I did miss speak when I said "unparalleled discrimination" because it contained the tacit assumption that that would be a trans person's only minority group. I imagine being black and trans would only compound both forms of discrimination exponentially.
I imagine assaulting people and issuing physical threats is already illegal, correct? You seem to be pro-gun, and can probably guess the rest of my point. Like I said, symbolic, asinine laws for the sake of a mistreated group getting to have their "moment."
 

townsend

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I imagine assaulting people and issuing physical threats is already illegal, correct? You seem to be pro-gun, and can probably guess the rest of my point. Like I said, symbolic, asinine laws for the sake of a mistreated group getting to have their "moment."
It depends. If someone thinks they are defending their own privacy there's a different expectation there, I think. I don't think prosecutors or law enforcement would take a case as seriously, absent a law. Their own personal biases could also impact how an assault was handled without clarification. See the "trans panic" stuff I cited earlier. The distinction is important for the people in the bathroom to know that the trans person is acting lawfully and deserves to be treated as any other restroom user.
 

skidadl

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Funny enough this is where old feminism's perception of gender really falls by the way side. The basic idea now, as far as I can tell, is that gender is an inherent identity but the expectations of gender are artificial.

At some point in my life I could cry, it's a physical act I was capable of. Expectation of gender caused me to force myself to never cry, and now it's just a thing I'm incapable of. That's a societal expectation for gender not an inherent trait of gender.

The problem isn't letting someone have a gender identity, it's attempting to stifle any tendencies that don't match their gender, for the sake of conformity.
This is where I very much disagree. Freedom and self responsibility come in play. No matter what we live in a free country where you allowed to behave how you want and not blame other people. I'll cry when it is appropriate or when I feel it is. I've made my own world and I plan to live there. Everyone else has the same responsibility. You can change any of that through making your own legacy. That can be done by having kids, influencing your sphere around you and even social actions. But you are never allowed to do it through law.
 

L.T. Fan

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Musing to self. This is a long way off the trail from pissing in the right pot but interesting nevertheless. Sounds like someone needs a hug.
 

Jiggyfly

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Look it, these reactionary laws were a response to other places making it a point to publicly affirm the right for trannies to pee in peace. Both sets of laws are symbolic and asinine in my eyes.

I think the reason you are seeing push-back is the sense that there must be new laws attached to every new group with a tough back story. It seems that each successive civil rights fight is over more and more obscure stuff. By 2066, if climate change hasn't killed us, we will be in a fight over paying reparations to gingers for all the jokes they've had made at their expense. And people who think maybe ginger reparations aren't worth it will be doxxed on social media and compared to the great bigots of the past.

It is possible to set up a support system for people without creating new, stupid laws.

People get kicked out of their families for dating black men, converting to Lutheranism, etc. No new laws required.
I agree that both laws are more symbolic than anything and that for the most part evrything was fine as is.

The problem I have is with the hypocrisy of the being comfortable argument.

Men would not be comfortable using the restroom with trans women and little girls would dam sure be more traumitized sharing a bathroom with trans men.

The pervert argument is also pretty baseless.

At this point the issue is being exploited for political use more than anything.
 

Jiggyfly

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I imagine assaulting people and issuing physical threats is already illegal, correct? You seem to be pro-gun, and can probably guess the rest of my point. Like I said, symbolic, asinine laws for the sake of a mistreated group getting to have their "moment."
I agree it should be handled that way but as in other forms of discrimination sometimes certain groups need to be made "legitimate" for authorities to actually protect them.


And sometimes groups take their "moment" any way they can.
 

Jiggyfly

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Musing to self. This is a long way off the trail from pissing in the right pot but interesting nevertheless. Sounds like someone needs a hug.
So now you are belittling posters by asking about their gender associations and saying they need a hug.

I guess we never have to worry about you playing the persecuted card anymore.

Your finally fitting right in.lol
 

Smitty

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It's not about comfort. It's about discrimination for the sake of discrimination. It's about people just now deciding their should be potty police, it's about sewing the seed that someone who appears trans might be a rapist. It's about people rolling out hysterics for the sake of harassing and marginalizing a group of people.

Listen I don't know what to tell you. Obviously there are big differences in the way cultural/ethnic/religious minorities encounter discrimination. Trans people don't have ancestral lands that can be stolen from them, also very rarely can people of other races pose as whites, etc. When I say unparalleled I wasn't minimizing the holocaust or wounded knee, to me that goes further than discrimination. But it's a fair point for you to say that Trans people haven't encountered that kind of large scale extermination (at least to my knowledge)

The point that I was making is they suffer a unique combination discriminations that I don't think any other minority experiences. Racial minorities don't get kicked out of their family for being racial minorities. Racial/Ethnic/Religious minorities have a community of support, trans people get put in much more isolated scenarios where they're rife for exploitation, abuse, and poverty. Again I'm not trying to minimize other kinds of discrimination just pointing out the unique challenges that only trans people face.
Its "unique" because the left only just now decided that not allowing men with their dicks cut off to use the women's room was discrimination -- but then again they have to come up with a new cause to be outraged about daily or they would be irrelevant. Yeah, I'd say that's fairly unique. It's also not comparable with discrimination against blacks, immigrants, religious minorities, etc, of the past.
 

Smitty

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Well, gender is a construct you see. Your sons wouldn't gravitate toward toy trucks if you hadn't conditioned them that way, and if you suggest otherwise, you are a bigot.

But somehow people born men and raised as men can feel like women and have an uncontrollable urge to wear dresses, and if you suggest otherwise, you are a bigot.

Coherence, yay.
total pwnage
 

L.T. Fan

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So now you are belittling posters by asking about their gender associations and saying they need a hug.

I guess we never have to worry about you playing the persecuted card anymore.

Your finally fitting right in.lol
Piss off.
 

fortsbest

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Here we go again.:lol


And still there has not been a federal mandate of to teach a gay curriculum in schools which is what you were and continue to be wrong about.
And you can't see that this is along the same lines and that it comes as a presidential edict as well? The rest is coming just wait.
 

townsend

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Its "unique" because the left only just now decided that not allowing men with their dicks cut off to use the women's room was discrimination -- but then again they have to come up with a new cause to be outraged about daily or they would be irrelevant. Yeah, I'd say that's fairly unique. It's also not comparable with discrimination against blacks, immigrants, religious minorities, etc, of the past.
It's amazing how confident you are without doing an ounce of research. I provide links for you, with quality scientific data. But you aren't one to let the facts get in the way of a good argument.
 

Cowboysrock55

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What does that have to do with anything.

Would these people make women feel uncomfortable being in the same restroom which has been an issue continually brought up.

And these people are actually attracted to women so how does that fit in with the whole safety thing.

Are you saying it's ok to use whatever bathroom you want as long as you look enough like that gender?
Because I can show you pictures of transgender male to females that would make women feel extremely uncomfortable in a bathroom. You're arguing for those transgenders as well.
 

Cowboysrock55

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I know I'm running the risk of hearing how Townsend knows lawyers now, but that is a crock of shit. Maybe some states have outdated unenforced laws, but as a lawyer, I can tell you that there is no laws in effect in any jurisdiction that I have heard of that allow you to kill a transgender person for flirting with you.

Maybe if we mean sexual assault, but you are always allowed to defend yourself from anyone making those kinds of "advances."
As a criminal defense attorney, I will confirm this.
 

Kbrown

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Funny enough this is where old feminism's perception of gender really falls by the way side. The basic idea now, as far as I can tell, is that gender is an inherent identity but the expectations of gender are artificial.

At some point in my life I could cry, it's a physical act I was capable of. Expectation of gender caused me to force myself to never cry, and now it's just a thing I'm incapable of. That's a societal expectation for gender not an inherent trait of gender.

The problem isn't letting someone have a gender identity, it's attempting to stifle any tendencies that don't match their gender, for the sake of conformity.
Based on this, can't you see a problem with making malleable social theories into standards of ethics and morality?

I guess you have to find something in a post-Christian world. Of course, therein lies the problem, I feel.
 
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