Trickle down is bullshit

skidadl

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Amazon has secured themselves as titans of retail because they intentionally undercut their own profit to make them more competitive with big box retailers. Personally I have an issue with how they overwork their employees, but the point is that undercutting short profit to invest in your model is a viable business strategy. Having a loyal work force with minimal turnover is an incredible business advantage, and investing in your work force is just as vital as any portion of a business model.

Adding to that is the moral implication. If I were to move elsewhere to work for a factory/firm/upscale prostitution ring, I'm making a commitment to that company, I'm making myself more economically vulnerable for the promise of a reliable job. Treating that as disposable, treating a person's livelihood as meaningless is intensely immoral, and frankly treacherous. Like I've said, there are instances where cuts are necessary to sustain a business, but if you're just trimming the fat for the sake of bigger dividends, that's a son of a bitch thing to do. More so, if you hire a person at what you can afford, and they're there through the lean times, they deserve to be rewarded for their loyalty. As the company starts making gains.

On the Macro scale we've seen a despicable level of wealth disparity in this country, and that's where this "struggling small business owner" comparison fails, companies that make huge profits are acting unethically by failing to consistently compensate the people who are actually producing the product or service that are making these people obscenely rich.

They're acting unethically if they fail to treat workers equitably, if they can. That's just a statement of fact. Murder is bad, you shouldn't fuck your sister, pay your employees fairly.


I don't assume malice. I assume poor intent leading to poor results. Killing the golden goose for the egg. I actually left my last job, because their under staffed maintenance department was making me work a rotating shift schedule that was incredibly dangerous. I worked 7am-7pm 3 days straight, had two days off, and then worked 7pm to 7am for 3 days straight. I quit because there were days where I started losing time on my commute. I would get home without any memory of most of the drive back. So I politely left the factory on good terms. I'm not any kind of victim. I'm going to do fine. I might or might not start a business, depending on a dozen different factors. The best business owners don't just start a business without a very solid plan in place, it's not the kind of thing you should half ass. Of course every dumb asshole who's run a business into the ground has experience as a business owner. So they're sages in your mind.
Well that's wonderful and all but why should we all have to live like that? Some of us prefer to be able to go out and create our own life and not rely on the tit of corporate America. Some prefer the risk/reward of doing your own thing. You know, the American Dream like our forefathers. You like safe choices I suppose. Nothing wrong with that but why is everyone else morally obligated to follow the same path?
 

L.T. Fan

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Amazon has secured themselves as titans of retail because they intentionally undercut their own profit to make them more competitive with big box retailers. Personally I have an issue with how they overwork their employees, but the point is that undercutting short profit to invest in your model is a viable business strategy. Having a loyal work force with minimal turnover is an incredible business advantage, and investing in your work force is just as vital as any portion of a business model.

Adding to that is the moral implication. If I were to move elsewhere to work for a factory/firm/upscale prostitution ring, I'm making a commitment to that company, I'm making myself more economically vulnerable for the promise of a reliable job. Treating that as disposable, treating a person's livelihood as meaningless is intensely immoral, and frankly treacherous. Like I've said, there are instances where cuts are necessary to sustain a business, but if you're just trimming the fat for the sake of bigger dividends, that's a son of a bitch thing to do. More so, if you hire a person at what you can afford, and they're there through the lean times, they deserve to be rewarded for their loyalty. As the company starts making gains.

On the Macro scale we've seen a despicable level of wealth disparity in this country, and that's where this "struggling small business owner" comparison fails, companies that make huge profits are acting unethically by failing to consistently compensate the people who are actually producing the product or service that are making these people obscenely rich.

They're acting unethically if they fail to treat workers equitably, if they can. That's just a statement of fact. Murder is bad, you shouldn't fuck your sister, pay your employees fairly.


I don't assume malice. I assume poor intent leading to poor results. Killing the golden goose for the egg. I actually left my last job, because their under staffed maintenance department was making me work a rotating shift schedule that was incredibly dangerous. I worked 7am-7pm 3 days straight, had two days off, and then worked 7pm to 7am for 3 days straight. I quit because there were days where I started losing time on my commute. I would get home without any memory of most of the drive back. So I politely left the factory on good terms. I'm not any kind of victim. I'm going to do fine. I might or might not start a business, depending on a dozen different factors. The best business owners don't just start a business without a very solid plan in place, it's not the kind of thing you should half ass. Of course every dumb asshole who's run a business into the ground has experience as a business owner. So they're sages in your mind.
How equitably are you treating the company you are working for by spending a lot of time on line posting. The road goes both ways.
 

townsend

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Well that's wonderful and all but why should we all have to live like that? Some of us prefer to be able to go out and create our own life and not rely on the tit of corporate America. Some prefer the risk/reward of doing your own thing. You know, the American Dream like our forefathers. You like safe choices I suppose. Nothing wrong with that but why is everyone else morally obligated to follow the same path?
I'm not against small business owners, most I know take much better care of their employees than corporate America. Most of my argument is that one does not equal the other. Anheiser Busch isn't fighting to sustain itself, it's employees hand it massive profits year after year, and they deserve reimbursement in line with those contribution. You don't strike me as a guy who treats his employees poorly anyway.
 

townsend

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By the way, employers aren't the only ones that can wreck a sustainable business with greed and short sidedness, unions helped wreck some industries for similar reasons. Unfortunately at present time the pendulum has swung too far the other direction, and now corporate employers have too much power and have started to bleed out the American middle class.
 

skidadl

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I'm not against small business owners, most I know take much better care of their employees than corporate America. Most of my argument is that one does not equal the other. Anheiser Busch isn't fighting to sustain itself, it's employees hand it massive profits year after year, and they deserve reimbursement in line with those contribution. You don't strike me as a guy who treats his employees poorly anyway.
I pay my guys well. I've had a lot of loyalty over time for sure. Some have left and found out that they were doing a lot better than they thought. If I had been more of a numbers guy I would have done better for myself but it isn't completely about that for me personally. One thing about freedom is that we don't all have to do it the same way. I stand strongly by those running a company and keeping all of the profits for themselves while paying their people minimum wage. It is really none of anyone's business. If you don't like it go ahead and risk yourself and stay awake at night worrying about your own gig. Or better yet work for someone else. The person running the company will adjust, have high turn over or go out of business. Money is simply a tool. I am not emotionally attached to it.

Corporations are going to run their organizations however they think they can succeed and make the maximum profit. That is their purpose. Some use the philosophy that you've mentioned, some don't. But by no means are they obligated to more for anyone. The market and a number of other mangerial factors will determine the outcome.
 

Jiggyfly

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Lol or because they recognized that demand was going way down. Like any person with an ounce of logic could see. A business that makes zero profit won't last long.

There is a reason you don't understand. You've never owned a business, you never will own a business and in all honesty you probably have never met a person who has owned a business. Your depiction of business owners as some devil like creature in an ivory tower may be the dumbest thing I have read on these boards. If you think business owners owners just wake up and go "I know what I'll do, I'll just go down to the factory floor and ask all of my workers to take a 50% pay cut so that I can make even more money" and that somehow works or is their reasoning then you are even dumber then I thought.

And by the way, the reason you will never own a business isn't because you weren't born rich. It's because your lack of understanding of profits and how to create them is so retarded that your business would instantly fail. Your knowledge on this subject is some of the least intelligent stuff I have read on these message boards. We are all dumber for having read it.
Dude you don't know shit about or what I have and have not done.

I have shown your condescending ass up on more than one occasion, I would put my knowledge base up against yours any day and I do, I and usually come out ahead.

I post actual articles from expert and reputable newspapers and that is some of the dumbest stuff you ever read?

Please get over yourself.

You have been going on and on about how companies do not cut salaries to increase profits and post an article where it shows a company doing exactly that, now that is some dumb shit.
 

skidadl

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By the way, employers aren't the only ones that can wreck a sustainable business with greed and short sidedness, unions helped wreck some industries for similar reasons. Unfortunately at present time the pendulum has swung too far the other direction, and now corporate employers have too much power and have started to bleed out the American middle class.
What do you suggest? Because corporations won't change until it is financially needed.
 

Jiggyfly

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[MENTION=63]Jiggyfly[/MENTION]
Completely off the topic. Companies can have profit sharing as long as it is expended to the company before they declare the net profit. Once to books are moved to the net profit status they cannot. It's actually pretty simple as long as you can charge it to the company it's okay. Once you move the books to the owners share you cannot. You have now been enlightened so there is no further need to Google non relevant information.
Yeah so like I said companies can give more of a share of the profits without penalty.
 

Jiggyfly

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He likes arguing. When he starts losing he finds something that seemingly fits his view and cuts and pastes. Real life application is beyond him. It is real easy to tear an organization or system down when you live in the land of ideas.
What the hell are you talking about.

Unlike many I back up my statements with real world examples as I have done in this thread several times.

I am not advocating for any thing pie in the sky just some more money into the hands of the people that are actually doing the work.
 

L.T. Fan

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Yeah so like I said companies can give more of a share of the profits without penalty.
You are simply unconscious sometime. I have given you the scenarios as to when they can and cannot add to employee benefits at their discretion. What is this last post supposed to mean and where did penalty come from? What are you driving at now?
 

townsend

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What do you suggest? Because corporations won't change until it is financially needed.
Well first and foremost, I think consumers need to do their best to only patron businesses that treat their employees well. I'm mostly opposed to federally enforced minimum wages, because having the same minimum wage for Naches Mississippi and San Francisco is insane. Any kind of minimum wage increase should occur at the municipal level, or at the State, and be indexed to the cost of living at that location.

We also need to enforce a lot of the rules on the books. Intel has had a habit of asking for visas to import workers immediately after massive layoffs of domestic employees. They should only be able to outsource (insourcing?) labor when they're unable to find qualified workers here, but for some reason they've been using this as a means to discount their workforce without being called on it.

As a country we need to diversify our workforce too. You can only get so mad at the cat for eating the canary. Trade schools have nearly gone the way of the dinosaur, and frankly a lot of trades have elaborate and pointlessly complex paths to certification. Schools need to prepare people to have skillsets they can bargain with, we have an overly abstract education system that funnels our popution into higher education in underwater basket weaving. A high school diploma should qualify you for more than flipping burgers and invading Iraq.
 

L.T. Fan

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Well first and foremost, I think consumers need to do their best to only patron businesses that treat their employees well. I'm mostly opposed to federally enforced minimum wages, because having the same minimum wage for Naches Mississippi and San Francisco is insane. Any kind of minimum wage increase should occur at the municipal level, or at the State, and be indexed to the cost of living at that location.

We also need to enforce a lot of the rules on the books. Intel has had a habit of asking for visas to import workers immediately after massive layoffs of domestic employees. They should only be able to outsource (insourcing?) labor when they're unable to find qualified workers here, but for some reason they've been using this as a means to discount their workforce without being called on it.

As a country we need to diversify our workforce too. You can only get so mad at the cat for eating the canary. Trade schools have nearly gone the way of the dinosaur, and frankly a lot of trades have elaborate and pointlessly complex paths to certification. Schools need to prepare people to have skillsets they can bargain with, we have an overly abstract education system that funnels our popution into higher education in underwater basket weaving. A high school diploma should qualify you for more than flipping burgers and invading Iraq.
I have an idea. Hillary may be needing a chief economics advisor if she wins the election. Perhaps you need to send her a resume. :art
 

skidadl

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What the hell are you talking about.

Unlike many I back up my statements with real world examples as I have done in this thread several times.

I am not advocating for any thing pie in the sky just some more money into the hands of the people that are actually doing the work.
What do you think starting companies and running them is doing? Nothing? I'm just sorry but that contribution is much more than a clock puncher. Like I said, do something else or do your own thing. People like to bitch and do nothing about it which is what I presume you are doing, right?
 

skidadl

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Well first and foremost, I think consumers need to do their best to only patron businesses that treat their employees well. I'm mostly opposed to federally enforced minimum wages, because having the same minimum wage for Naches Mississippi and San Francisco is insane. Any kind of minimum wage increase should occur at the municipal level, or at the State, and be indexed to the cost of living at that location.

We also need to enforce a lot of the rules on the books. Intel has had a habit of asking for visas to import workers immediately after massive layoffs of domestic employees. They should only be able to outsource (insourcing?) labor when they're unable to find qualified workers here, but for some reason they've been using this as a means to discount their workforce without being called on it.

As a country we need to diversify our workforce too. You can only get so mad at the cat for eating the canary. Trade schools have nearly gone the way of the dinosaur, and frankly a lot of trades have elaborate and pointlessly complex paths to certification. Schools need to prepare people to have skillsets they can bargain with, we have an overly abstract education system that funnels our popution into higher education in underwater basket weaving. A high school diploma should qualify you for more than flipping burgers and invading Iraq.
High school is mostly a joke. I laugh every day at the crap that my sons school turns out. When we homeschooled them they were getting a much much better education.
 

Jiggyfly

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:lol

And if they continued that way, their doors would shut, do you not agree? I mean you're making a ridiculous argument and certainly you can see that. Of course luckily for Amazon they turn massive profits at times as well.

"Amazon reported a profit of $513 million, or $1.07 a share, reversing its year-ago loss of $57 million"

If you need me to do that math for you I can certainly can.

I think it is awfully arrogant of you to think that a company should only exist if they operate themselves exactly how you would. And if you were so good at it, you'd run your own business. And by the way, I was working on a factory floor before I could drive a car, so stop with the bleeding heart bullshit. Business owners aren't sociopaths simply because they try to turn a profit. They may make the wrong decisions in attempting to turn a profit but it's not because they want to hurt their employees. They do it because they think what they are doing is best for their business. And anyone who has a problem with their employer is more then free to leave that business and go somewhere else or try their hand at owning a business. The problem is, you can't play victim any long if you actually go out and trying do something. You only get to play the victim card if you act helpless.
I can't YOU of all people said that.:lol

I don't who you have been exsposed to or what they did but this victim card narrative always comes out.

And what world do you live in where a person can just up and get another job if they "don't like it".

I guess in your mind the powerless should always just take what they are given because hey it's there fault for being in that situation, right?

I can see the Rand coming out , that explains a lot.
 

Jiggyfly

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You are simply unconscious sometime. I have given you the scenarios as to when they can and cannot add to employee benefits at their discretion. What is this last post supposed to mean and where did penalty come from? What are you driving at now?
I already knew those scenarios before we started this whole conversation.

And penalty scenario came from you, in regard to paying employee's a higher share of profits.
 

Jiggyfly

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What do you think starting companies and running them is doing? Nothing? I'm just sorry but that contribution is much more than a clock puncher. Like I said, do something else or do your own thing. People like to bitch and do nothing about it which is what I presume you are doing, right?
I never said it's nothing.

Are you really trying to say the stockholders of Caterpillar are doing the same work as the people on the factory floor?

The same can be said across industries from NOV to Perdue chicken.

I don't know why some take this so personal I am not attacking you or your business or all companies for that matter.

There are companies like Costco and Yummly yogurt who treat their employees very well and I am sure there are tons more.
 

townsend

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By the way, another big thing we need to do is dust off the anti trust laws. We're starting to see too many enormous mergers, like DOW chemical and Phizer, Phzer and like 9 other competitors, INBEV and Miller, Mobil and Exxon, At&t and Cingular, etc having an oligopoly is devastating to free markets, and of course, fair wages.
 
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L.T. Fan

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I already knew those scenarios before we started this whole conversation.

And penalty scenario came from you, in regard to paying employee's a higher share of profits.
I don't think so. You will have to point me to the penalty thing because I can't recall using it in any profit sharing conversation. Maybe in a, tax scenario but that wouldn't fit into any discretionary profit sharing process. I will just wait to see what you come up with.

If you were already aware of these scenarios then why and what were you debating?
 
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