Do you guys remember when

Chocolate Lab · Jul 4, 2017

Rev said:
The real issue is that he keeps making all of these mistakes that you brush off as saying that anybody can make those. Look back and you will see that he never learns from them because it keeps happening. Just simple fundamental mistakes that shouldnt happen.

Yep, there have been many of these type mistakes over the years. Almost too many to list.

But those in-game mistakes are hardly the only ones he's made. What about the team being completely unprepared to play in that Green Bay game?

He just sucks. Unless you just want a friendly warm body to carry out the nominal duties of a head coach, as Jerry does.

bbgun · Jul 4, 2017

townsend said:
Patrick Crayton, Terrell Owens were all in open rebellion by the end of 08. Pac Man Jones had melted down.

The entire team quit on Phillips on the road in Green Bay in front of God and everyone. Compared to that a little sideline tantrum is nothing.

The team has never quit on Garrett like that. Even with Romo and Dez and injured and a fourth string JAG throwing interceptions, the team was at least trying. Because they aren't gutless, because the culture has changed

What's your definition of "culture"? Wearing jackets on a plane? Big fucking deal. The "culture" has done wonders for Gregory, McClain, Lawrence, Irving, Randle, Hardy, etc. When the "culture" manages to teach Zeke not to be a serial knucklehead, get back to me.

Chocolate Lab · Jul 4, 2017

And besides, the team "quit" just as much against Chicago that frigid night and never showed up against Washington in 2015 until they pulled their starters up 21 or whatever it was. And those games were against Josh McCown and Kirk Cousins teams that went nowhere, not Aaron Rodgers and the team that would go on to win the Superbowl that year.

Smitty · Jul 4, 2017

townsend said:
I'd say Garrett is capable of making mistakes that cost us points, like the spike in the GB game. But I don't think these kind of flaws are unique to Garrett. A lot of games were decided by bad clock management this year.

So I don't think his flaws are bad enough to prevent us from having a successful playoff run. Because I think they're on par with many of Garrett's peers.

Thank god someone else has finally said it.

You'd think to listen to this board that no coach has ever mismanaged a game clock before, instead of the reality which is that it happens across the league every single week by a myriad of different coaches.

What we have going on here is, like, observational bias. We don't watch the other 31 teams every week... and the other games we do watch, we don't agonize over the fine details of every game situation. If the Chargers blow a game management situation against the Titans, we don't think twice about it because ultaimtely we don't care. But if Garrett does it, we go back over every other possible thing he could have or should have done differently and pretend it was blatantly obvious.

This stuff happens every week. It's not unique to Garrett. Other coaches go pass happy and give up big leads too. It's why I'm confident saying Garrett is squarely in the middle of the pack somewhere when it comes to head coaches.

Cotton · Jul 4, 2017

We are comparing Garrett to shit coaches. If the idea is to win, we need a coach worthy of that. This bullshit about being okay with him being the middle of the pack coach we just can't change is stupid.

Smitty · Jul 5, 2017

Iamtdg said:
We are comparing Garrett to shit coaches. If the idea is to win, we need a coach worthy of that. This bullshit about being okay with him being the middle of the pack coach we just can't change is stupid.

Well that may be true but that's not what kicked off this thread's debate, it was the claim that if we ever win a Super Bowl with him, it will definitely be in spite of him. Not at all true.

midswat · Jul 5, 2017

I don't think anyone said that until the 21st post in the thread, so that isn't what "kicked off" this thread.

That said, this team will never win a super bowl under Garrett (ever) so there's no need to argue the validity of this statement.

Smitty · Jul 5, 2017

midswat said:
I don't think anyone said that until the 21st post in the thread, so that isn't what "kicked off" this thread.

I meant what kicked off my involvement.

midswat · Jul 5, 2017

Of course. It's your world. We're just living in it.

Simpleton · Jul 5, 2017

In a vacuum Garrett is not that good of a HC. He isn't strong when it comes to X's and O's, he's had more time management fuck ups than you can count and he isn't some amazing motivator, although he isn't bad in that area either.

Where his true value lies is in how he has helped shape the power structure of the organization, along with Stephen. Jerry's trust in Garrett is a big part of why he's taken a step back and let Stephen/McClay/Garrett handle things more in terms of personnel and decision making. I feel like it's taken a community to reel in Jerry, just one person (even his son) wouldn't have been enough, and Garrett has been a big part in that. If the HC was someone that Jerry didn't like/trust as much I doubt the organizational structure would have improved as much as it has over the last 4-5 years.

Chocolate Lab · Jul 5, 2017

mschmidt64 said:
Thank god someone else has finally said it.

You'd think to listen to this board that no coach has ever mismanaged a game clock before, instead of the reality which is that it happens across the league every single week by a myriad of different coaches.

Hey guyz Bill Belichick mismanaged the clock once too!

Speaking of him, this reminds me of that "Do Your Job" mantra BB has. Like he said on that Football Life show, the unspoken but implied and understood part of that statement is that you have to do your job *well*. Garrett can perform the duties of coach, yes. He just can't coach very well.

But I guess some are okay with that.

Smitty · Jul 5, 2017

I'm ok with it in the sense that I like Garrett as a coach so unless I see a clear upgrade I'm not firing him. And there are clear upgrades out there from time to time.

But to fire him and then have to choose from like, Doug Marrones and Mike McCoys and retreads like John Fox?

Pass.

I'll stick with the structural stability he's helped introduce that Simp outlined. I think there is actually a decent chance we could win a Super Bowl in the Prescott era. This team is good.

Chocolate Lab · Jul 5, 2017

mschmidt64 said:
I'm ok with it in the sense that I like Garrett as a coach

Why? Serious question. Do you like mediocre to poor players as well?

And I don't buy for a second that Garrett has introduced stability. Jerry and Stephen have done that. They control the organizational structure, not Garrett. He's only still the coach because he's a loyal employee whose deddy worked for Jerry back in the day.

Smitty · Jul 5, 2017

Serious question?

Serious answer... I do buy that Garrett has introduced stability. I like his professional approach. I think it breeds a good atmosphere... and not shockingly that's his biggest strength right now.... the circus atmosphere that has plagued us for all the Jones years is largely gone.

I am not convinced that firing him for a hot assistant or college coach wouldn't end up with the circus back in town.

Now... if you told me that Andy Reid was available, yeah, I'd fire him for that. And I would have supported that a couple years back when Reid was in fact available. There are other coaches that fit this mold too.

But if I have to go in blind to a coaching search that may end up resulting in, oh, Adam Gase.... F that. Garrett hasn't warranted firing in my opinion, coming off 12-4 and 13-3 seasons (I don't cast judgment for a season in which he lost his starting QB and WR to injury most of the year and starting RB to free agency who was never replaced adequately. Any coach around is going sub-.500 for that, with the possible exception of Belichick).

He's gonna end up long term comparable to a guy like Marvin Lewis IMO. Though hopefully Garrett can get a Super Bowl ring or two. The Cowboys FO structure at this point in time is maybe better than the Bengals FO structure (though that's not saying much).

Chocolate Lab · Jul 5, 2017

mschmidt64 said:
Serious question?

Serious answer... I do buy that Garrett has introduced stability. I like his professional approach. I think it breeds a good atmosphere... and not shockingly that's his biggest strength right now.... the circus atmosphere that has plagued us for all the Jones years is largely gone.

What circus atmosphere is gone? Like leading the league in suspensions? Choking in big games? Blowing huge leads? Having star players consistently act like knuckleheads?

But I guess we're now "professional" because Garrett stands behind the lectern at PCs and speaks in grammatically correct sentences.

Genghis Khan · Jul 5, 2017

Simpleton said:
In a vacuum Garrett is not that good of a HC. He isn't strong when it comes to X's and O's, he's had more time management fuck ups than you can count and he isn't some amazing motivator, although he isn't bad in that area either.

Where his true value lies is in how he has helped shape the power structure of the organization, along with Stephen. Jerry's trust in Garrett is a big part of why he's taken a step back and let Stephen/McClay/Garrett handle things more in terms of personnel and decision making. I feel like it's taken a community to reel in Jerry, just one person (even his son) wouldn't have been enough, and Garrett has been a big part in that. If the HC was someone that Jerry didn't like/trust as much I doubt the organizational structure would have improved as much as it has over the last 4-5 years.

I think we can thank the goof son for that, not so much the red headed step child.

DLK150 · Jul 5, 2017

mschmidt64 said:
Serious question?

Serious answer... I do buy that Garrett has introduced stability. I like his professional approach. I think it breeds a good atmosphere... and not shockingly that's his biggest strength right now.... the circus atmosphere that has plagued us for all the Jones years is largely gone.

I am not convinced that firing him for a hot assistant or college coach wouldn't end up with the circus back in town.

Now... if you told me that Andy Reid was available, yeah, I'd fire him for that. And I would have supported that a couple years back when Reid was in fact available. There are other coaches that fit this mold too.

But if I have to go in blind to a coaching search that may end up resulting in, oh, Adam Gase.... F that. Garrett hasn't warranted firing in my opinion, coming off 12-4 and 13-3 seasons (I don't cast judgment for a season in which he lost his starting QB and WR to injury most of the year and starting RB to free agency who was never replaced adequately. Any coach around is going sub-.500 for that, with the possible exception of Belichick).

He's gonna end up long term comparable to a guy like Marvin Lewis IMO. Though hopefully Garrett can get a Super Bowl ring or two. The Cowboys FO structure at this point in time is maybe better than the Bengals FO structure (though that's not saying much).

Stability? Like completely revamping your coaching staff?

Marvin Lewis? One of the longest tenured coaches in the NFL to not win a single playoff game currently? Sounds like someone I would want my head coach to emulate.

Smitty · Jul 5, 2017

DLK150 said:
Stability? Like completely revamping your coaching staff?

Marvin Lewis? One of the longest tenured coaches in the NFL to not win a single playoff game currently? Sounds like someone I would want my head coach to emulate.

Yeah, I get your point, but going back to the original issue, if the Bengals did win the Super Bowl, you'd have to give Lewis credit.

This thread has morphed, as they all do, into a general Garrett airing of the grievances. Who you'd fire Garrett for is a different discussion.

Even while I can agree with your point here, my position remains that I wouldn't fire him without a Bill Parcells-meeting-on-the-tarmac lined up. I'm not gonna go into a coaching search not knowing who I'm coming out with just to punitively fire Garrett for all those horrid 8-8 seasons. He's fresh off 12-4 and 13-3 once he squared away the surrounding staff and personnel. A new coach probably cleans house. When you compile good records like that, there is actually a chance you could win something.

That being said, I expect a down year. Don't think it will be enough to get him fired but I think we take a step back even if healthy. Then in 2018 I could see us back at 12-4, 13-3.

DLK150 · Jul 5, 2017

mschmidt64 said:
Yeah, I get your point, but going back to the original issue, if the Bengals did win the Super Bowl, you'd have to give Lewis credit.

This thread has morphed, as they all do, into a general Garrett airing of the grievances. Who you'd fire Garrett for is a different discussion.

Even while I can agree with your point here, my position remains that I wouldn't fire him without a Bill Parcells-meeting-on-the-tarmac lined up. I'm not gonna go into a coaching search not knowing who I'm coming out with just to punitively fire Garrett for all those horrid 8-8 seasons. He's fresh off 12-4 and 13-3 once he squared away the surrounding staff and personnel. A new coach probably cleans house. When you compile good records like that, there is actually a chance you could win something.

That being said, I expect a down year. Don't think it will be enough to get him fired but I think we take a step back even if healthy. Then in 2018 I could see us back at 12-4, 13-3.

Coaches with a proven record of success are just few and far between these days. Everybody looks for "the next big thing" but that usually is rolling the dice on an OC or DC. The proven coaches get locked up once they have a solid track record, even if it doesn't result in a SB win. The jury's out on Garrett. He's coached some good although not great teams and he's coached some stinkers.

Cowboysrock55 · Jul 5, 2017

DLK150 said:
Stability? Like completely revamping your coaching staff?

Marvin Lewis? One of the longest tenured coaches in the NFL to not win a single playoff game currently? Sounds like someone I would want my head coach to emulate.

Stability certainly plays a part in a teams success. It isn't the only factor otherwise everyone would just keep their coaching departments in place until they win a Superbowl but to pretend like it doesn't help a team any is pure lunacy. Personally I don't want to change systems and coaching staffs under our new franchise QB in Dak Prescott. Who knows if he has the same type of success in a different system. I don't want to change systems on this O-line, this RB or hell even this defense. We found something that worked really well last year and we would be dumb as hell to think our team would benefit from revamping the coaching staff.

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