A week of LGBTQ acceptance education in a middle school. Really?

Jiggyfly

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If any word is used in its proper context it isn't a slur. That's where you are having a problem. To change a legitimate word to something else because it is difficult to accept is escapism. It makes someone feel better to use a different terminology but in truth it's a form of deniability. Guys like me may prefer the term advanced maturity instead of old but the truth is people of my age group.are old. If you call me an old guy it's correct. If you call me an old fart its probably a slur but the old part is still correct.
How is calling somebody retarded who is clearly not using it in its proper context.?

Do you even believe half the stuff you post?
 

Jiggyfly

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I have one other question about "challenging yourself." My daughter is 24 years old. She is the democrat/liberal dream. Young, single female minority with child. Her mother is native american, and she has a foster child that is almost 2 years old. Growing up, she was a staunch leftist. It didn't matter what the cause was, as long as it said democrat beside it, she was all for it. So was her boyfriend (now fiance). He's also native american. But something strange happened... They grew up. She is now 24, he's 26. They have jobs. They pay taxes. They're raising a child. And once the real world opened their eyes, I guess they "challenged themselves". They both are now pretty solid conservatives.

So my question is this. Does that count as "challenging themselves?" Or are they just incredibly lazy, scared adults that need to come out of their blankey and head back in to their adolescent cocoon?
What the hell does being conservative have to with what he said?

Being conservative is not what Towns was talking about at all.
 

townsend

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Here's the thing, there are people out there who believe they should have born as an animal, like a cat or bird. Those people have the same type of mental disconnect and they have the same argument against being considered a mental illness, i.e., that there is an otherwise functioning community of them out there who are happy being bird people and don't want or need treatment.

These people have something wrong with them. If they aren't hurting anyone, fine, I'm not saying round them up for conversion therapy, but they are not birds or cats and we should not be reinforcing their delusion because it can be dangerous to themselves or their loved ones, unfortunately.

Trans people have some sort of disconnect in their brain too. If you want to talk about compassion that is fine but if you were born with a penis, and your chromosomes say you are a man, then I don't care that your brain chemistry says you are slightly effeminate. You're still a dude. You don't have to like women, you can love dudes, you can conform to non traditional gender roles and no one should be discriminating against you for those choices, but those are, at the end of the day, YOUR CHOICES, and not some sort of biological reality.

And this IS a slippery slope because you see a little boy who likes to play with dolls and then you have his hippy freak parents filling his head with ideas of that he's really a girl and pushing him for surgery. 5 year olds are not capable of this type of thinking and its frankly scary and disgusting. Where is the compassion from the left for these children?

Instead they are in such a hurry to push their agenda for no one ever to be told their lifestyle is their own fault, that they have rubber stamped this sickening form of child abuse and swept under the rug countless other people who are actually mentally suffering and for whom gender "transformation" offers no relief with the lie that it is society's fault for saying no.

But I'm the one who is ignorant and non compassionate. No, maybe it's the left who is just ignorant on this matter.
So after being criticized for lack of nuance in your argument, you double down with hyperbolic anecdotes, and a "slippery slope" I'm going to assume that's a zero in the personal experience column.

Let's get rid of this slippery slope nonsense. Pointing anecdotal outliers as an example of why an entire group of people should stop petitioning for acceptance is a mad libs tactic you could use against literally any form of social progress, or any religion, political movement, or personal philosophy for that matter. A few terrible parents injure or kill their child in the name of Jesus every year, that shouldn't be used to discredit Christians, so don't hold trans people to a different standard.

I obviously agree that parents shouldn't try to funnel their child into a trans gender role, based on faint clues, like playing with dolls, nor should they try to raise their kid without gender, since that just guarantees you'll traumatize them regardless of their gender identity. But as I said, you're pointing to a hyperbolic anecdote.

I can't speak to the condition of bird people, but I wonder how many people spend their lives hiding the fact that they are "bird people" or if this is something that fades if they disconnect from their community. Bruce Jenner spent 30 years pretending to not be Trans, achieving ridiculous amount of success without feeling fulfilled. The bird-people thing sounds more like people who were bored and want to add something interesting to their otherwise lackluster identity, like the people who decide they were cowboys in a past life. I could be wrong though. If you have more insight into the long term mental condition, suicide rate, general disposition, and discrimination against bird people, I'd be happy to give it a read. Thankfully trans gender people have a good deal more information about them, and (despite your faulty assertions) are not categorized as delusional by the APA.

I mentioned this before, multiple times, that the mechanics of identity are more complex than simple biology. If someone's intersex, they're kind of expected to choose a gender and run with it. Because sex isn't gender, and gender isn't sex. My lab-mix doesn't have a gender. When he got his testicles removed it did not trigger an identity crisis, because he doesn't have a self perceived identity. He and his sister shit in the same place, because they don't have the capacity to perceive it as any kind of inappropriate.

Gender is a thing humans have, because we're the only things on earth capable of perceiving that as being important, and it's defined by an increasingly obsolete combinations of societal perceptions of masculinity and femininity. There's a reason we have terms like "girly girl" because there's a general recognition that a female can be more or less feminine, that it's not directly attributable to a binary (XX or XY) configuration. Now where masculinity and femininity separate from societal expectation and natural inclination is a bit of a gray area. Since identity a cultural biproduct, it's impossible to define one in the other's absence. I suspect feral humans would not have a very well honed sense of self.
 

Jiggyfly

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Oooh. She has a beard. Nice.

What's in her pants?
So you don't think being in a bathroom with that person would not be uncomfortable to your wife or daughter more than the off chance they get a penis flash.

And you know that person is actually attracted to women right?
 

NoDak

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What the hell does being conservative have to with what he said?

Being conservative is not what Towns was talking about at all.
Jesus Christ. The point was about his term of "challenging yourself" and changing your beliefs. Not whether you're a liberal or conservative.

Try to keep up, Ruprecht.
 

Smitty

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So after being criticized for lack of nuance in your argument, you double down with hyperbolic anecdotes, and a "slippery slope" I'm going to assume that's a zero in the personal experience column.

Let's get rid of this slippery slope nonsense. Pointing anecdotal outliers as an example of why an entire group of people should stop petitioning for acceptance is a mad libs tactic you could use against literally any form of social progress, or any religion, political movement, or personal philosophy for that matter. A few terrible parents injure or kill their child in the name of Jesus every year, that shouldn't be used to discredit Christians, so don't hold trans people to a different standard.

I obviously agree that parents shouldn't try to funnel their child into a trans gender role, based on faint clues, like playing with dolls, nor should they try to raise their kid without gender, since that just guarantees you'll traumatize them regardless of their gender identity. But as I said, you're pointing to a hyperbolic anecdote.

I can't speak to the condition of bird people, but I wonder how many people spend their lives hiding the fact that they are "bird people" or if this is something that fades if they disconnect from their community. Bruce Jenner spent 30 years pretending to not be Trans, achieving ridiculous amount of success without feeling fulfilled. The bird-people thing sounds more like people who were bored and want to add something interesting to their otherwise lackluster identity, like the people who decide they were cowboys in a past life. I could be wrong though. If you have more insight into the long term mental condition, suicide rate, general disposition, and discrimination against bird people, I'd be happy to give it a read. Thankfully trans gender people have a good deal more information about them, and (despite your faulty assertions) are not categorized as delusional by the APA.

I mentioned this before, multiple times, that the mechanics of identity are more complex than simple biology. If someone's intersex, they're kind of expected to choose a gender and run with it. Because sex isn't gender, and gender isn't sex. My lab-mix doesn't have a gender. When he got his testicles removed it did not trigger an identity crisis, because he doesn't have a self perceived identity. He and his sister shit in the same place, because they don't have the capacity to perceive it as any kind of inappropriate.

Gender is a thing humans have, because we're the only things on earth capable of perceiving that as being important, and it's defined by an increasingly obsolete combinations of societal perceptions of masculinity and femininity. There's a reason we have terms like "girly girl" because there's a general recognition that a female can be more or less feminine, that it's not directly attributable to a binary (XX or XY) configuration. Now where masculinity and femininity separate from societal expectation and natural inclination is a bit of a gray area. Since identity a cultural biproduct, it's impossible to define one in the other's absence. I suspect feral humans would not have a very well honed sense of self.
I wasn't interested in making a response to your criticism for lack of nuance, just reiterating my point.

I'm not throwing out the slippery slope argument because unless we outlaw gender identity counseling until well after puberty than this type of thing is a very real danger. You even acknowledge this is a thing; let's not pretend it's hyperbolic. You agree that parents doing this type of thing is bad, but you aren't willing to do anything about it? Makes sense.

Yes, you are right, you can't speak to "bird people" any more than you can trans people, so that ends that argument. From what I have seen its not at all a boredom thing, it's a real psychological disconnect, not ironically just like transgenderism.

And I know you mentioned before your new age theory about gender being fluid... I don't recognize it as a settled scientific fact when in fact is mostly just your preferred theory at the moment.

Where your point has any validity on that count is that there is a wide range of cultural norms associated with the gender "scale" but as I stated before, that is all preference to what gender roles you want to conform to. It does not change biological reality, which is what trans people want. They want us to pretend biological reality is changed instead of just accepting that they want to conform to different gender roles.

if they said "I am a man and I just want to be respected for my desire to dress like a woman" they would have a lot less resistance because they'd be owning up to the reality that they are not in fact biologically female. Instead they want you to believe that they actually ARE a woman on some level, which is false. They are on no level female, they are biological males who happen to have brain chemistry wiring them to prefer female gender roles. This is no different from me as a man who likes to cook dinner instead of my wife.

But owning up to this disconnect is admitting that there is a gap in your reality perception and this is damaging to the quest for mainstream acceptance, because it implies abnormalcy even if not implying judgment or disrespect. So of course that option is abandoned because the PC police want you to think everything is normal.
 
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townsend

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Wow. Hypocrite much? You try and tell Iamtdg how he should and shouldn't insult people, then you try to insult Schmitty by insinuating he's a child? Should children be offended by this?

Then you say that since he hasn't changed his views, he's wrong? How do you know if he hasn't "challenged himself"? What if over the past ten or so years he has seen things in the world, yet still has the same views? So, if somebody doesn't have the same views as you, they are lazy and haven't challenged themselves... Yet you have "challenged" yourself, and have become a supposedly better person? Ha. Laughable. Then you tell him to come out of his blankey and maybe he'll see he's not right all the time, eh? Please show us one instance where you've admitted to being wrong about something. And saying you were wrong about those articles earlier in this thread doesn't count, because a couple pages later you were right back to claiming the same shit.
I don't know your daughter, so I can't speculate very well. People can absolutely challenge themselves by pulling towards conservatism. Liberals have plenty of oversimplified world views as well, and coming out of college from a separate political direction doesn't give you any more real world experience.

Now that being said, people can absolutely regress as well. I think a lot depends on how big or small your social circle is, and whether the building blocks of a simplistic worldview go unchallenged or not. Plenty of people can recede into an echo chamber and change their political alignment that way. For instance, my father became unbearable around 2009ish because he listened to Fox News all day. I also have some Bernie Bros in my circle of friends that have gone off the deep end as well.
 

Jiggyfly

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Jesus Christ. The point was about his term of "challenging yourself" and changing your beliefs. Not whether you're a liberal or conservative.

Try to keep up, Ruprecht.
You were the dimwit that injected conservatism into the conversation as if that had anything to do with what he said.

Once again you put your foot in your mouth by overacting because you had a dim flash in your head.

All conservatives do not agree about this law either so why would you go there.
 

NoDak

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You were the dimwit that injected conservatism into the conversation as if that had anything to do with what he said.

Once again you put your foot in your mouth by overacting because you had a dim flash in your head.

All conservatives do not agree about this law either so why would you go there.
:lol

God damn, you are even more stupid than the board takes you for.

Again. It had nothing to do with being a conservative or a liberal. It was 100% about the term "challenging yourself" and changing your core beliefs. It's what he claimed Schmitty was incapable of doing. It was what he said he himself had done.

Any non idiot can and does see this. Note, I said NON idiot. Go ahead and continue to be confused. I don't care.
 

Jiggyfly

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This thread brings back memories.

The same cast of characters railing against anything I said.

Keep up the good fight Towns, You are much more eloquent in your rebuttals than me but you still get the same comebacks.

I amazed how much things stay the same, everything ends up with you being accused a far left liberal hippy.
At least they can't use the fallback of playing the race card with you.
 

Jiggyfly

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:lol

God damn, you are even more stupid than the board takes you for.

Again. It had nothing to do with being a conservative or a liberal. It was 100% about the term "challenging yourself" and changing. It's what he claimed Schmitty was incapable of doing. It was what he said he himself had done.

Any non idiot can and does see this. Note, I said NON idiot. Go ahead and continue to be confused. I don't care.
Why did you bring conservatism into the convo?

I am not confused as is nobody else who read it, you went there and got called out.

Now you devolve into calling me an idiot to deflect your ignorant statement.

You have no sense of nuance and totally missed what he was saying which is not surprising coming from you.

You are not very deep intellectually at all, always the same 4 slights and attacks.

Ok maybe 5, I forgot about ruprecht.:lol
 

L.T. Fan

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Jesus Christ. The point was about his term of "challenging yourself" and changing your beliefs. Not whether you're a liberal or conservative.

Try to keep up, Ruprecht.
He really doesn't read what he responds to. He is just wanting to challenge something.
 

townsend

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I wasn't interested in making a response to your criticism for lack of nuance, just reiterating my point.

I'm not throwing out the slippery slope argument because unless we outlaw gender identity counseling until well after puberty than this type of thing is a very real danger. You even acknowledge this is a thing; let's not pretend it's hyperbolic. You agree that parents doing this type of thing is bad, but you aren't willing to do anything about it? Makes sense.

Yes, you are right, you can't speak to "bird people" any more than you can trans people, so that ends that argument. From what I have seen its not at all a boredom thing, it's a real psychological disconnect, not ironically just like transgenderism.

And I know you mentioned before your new age theory about gender being fluid... I don't recognize it as a settled scientific fact when in fact is mostly just your preferred theory at the moment.

Where your point has any validity on that count is that there is a wide range of cultural norms associated with the gender "scale" but as I stated before, that is all preference to what gender roles you want to conform to. It does not change biological reality, which is what trans people want. They want us to pretend biological reality is changed instead of just accepting that they want to conform to different gender roles.

if they said "I am a man and I just want to be respected for my desire to dress like a woman" they would have a lot less resistance because they'd be owning up to the reality that they are not in fact biologically female. Instead they want you to believe that they actually ARE a woman on some level, which is false. They are on no level female, they are biological males who happen to have brain chemistry wiring them to prefer female gender roles. This is no different from me as a man who likes to cook dinner instead of my wife.

But owning up to this disconnect is admitting that there is a gap in your reality perception and this is damaging to the quest for mainstream acceptance, because it implies abnormalcy even if not implying judgment or disrespect. So of course that option is abandoned because the PC police want you to think everything is normal.
So that's no to nuance, yes to undeserved confidence, no to personal experience. I suppose this wouldn't be a football forum without unabashed certainty in your armchair based conjecture.

From what I can tell the only studies done into so-called "species dysmorphia" were conducted directly with the intention of discrediting trans people (which is to say the goal was decidedly non-scientific) and have no kind of clinical/professional backbone. This doesn't even come close to comparing to the number of studies conducted on trans gender persons. Once again you group to things together out of convenience, because nuance is harder than one-liners.

I don't know if gender fluidity is necessarily my "preferred theory" as much as it's an absolute in that "masculinity" and "femininity" are attributes that people of both genders experience more or less. Now the complexities of gender identity can't really have an absolute concrete theory that dictates them. Which is why I'm preaching about the unknowable complexity and not professing as much certainty as you. Once again, I think things are more complicated, you like oversimplifications. Small box of crayons.
 

L.T. Fan

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I see, going to the Nodak school of deflection.

I can read fine as represented by my actually researching topics and not just regurgitating talking points.
You are about as close to a Don Quixote personified as I have ever ran across. You only see things the way you want to not how it actually is. It's a waste of time to try to respond to you because it comes back distorted. I am not going to respond further about this thread to you so save your thoughts for someone else.
 

Jiggyfly

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You are about as close to a Don Quixote personified as I have ever ran across. You only see things the way you want to not how it actually is. It's a waste of time to try to respond to you because it comes back distorted. I am not going to respond further about this thread to you so save your thoughts for someone else.
And right on cue get butthurt and tuck tale and run.

But right after declaring how obstinate I am, there is a telling pattern presenting itself.

The Don Quixote thing is new so that's something.
 

skidadl

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Problem is there's been no risk demonstrated at all. It's an utterly imaginary risk. This isn't about safety, it's just about striking out against social change, mostly by people who were pissed that they lost the Gay Marriage case.

This is simply not true. You don't have to be very smart to understand the nature of how things evolve. You can go on about it forever and I'll never ever buy into the notion the the security risk isn't higher. Google all you want if it makes it feel better but I'll go with life in general and feel really good sleeping at night about where I stand.

Sadly, the left and right have used many situations inappropriately to gain for their cause. That has jaded and hurt everyone at some point. IMO this is the time to be a country of values and stop with all of the "prove it" nonsense.
 

Clay_Allison

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This is simply not true. You don't have to be very smart to understand the nature of how things evolve. You can go on about it forever and I'll never ever buy into the notion the the security risk isn't higher. Google all you want if it makes it feel better but I'll go with life in general and feel really good sleeping at night about where I stand.

Sadly, the left and right have used many situations inappropriately to gain for their cause. That has jaded and hurt everyone at some point. IMO this is the time to be a country of values and stop with all of the "prove it" nonsense.
Real dangers are things that can be demonstrated with facts. Vague feelings of discomfort aren't dangers. Dallas and Austin let trans people into their restrooms and these attacks you are so afraid of just aren't happening. If these cities were full of deviants sneaking into bathrooms I'd agree it was a problem and something would probably need to be done. So far this debate reminds me of people in Africa and Indonesia still being afraid of people practicing witchcraft and putting curses on them. Excuse me for not being in tune with your imagination, but I need hard facts before I believe we need government intervention.
 
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