A week of LGBTQ acceptance education in a middle school. Really?

townsend

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You are apparently presenting all this under the guise of human rights. Yet you do not respect the rights of those who are not enamored with this idea for various reasons. Would you simply dismiss the fact that the plurality has rights also? Or do they not matter to you?
I don't much kow to the tyranny of the majority. Although I recognize that legislating acceptance against its wishes is no real solution, hearts and minds don't change overnight after all, and enforcing an ideal not reflected by your population will polarize people against it.

I'm far more opposed to legislation against inclusion than I am in favor of legislation requiring it. If Target or whoever is allowed to make its own decision, than I can let my dollars do the talking. But the plurality shouldn't be permitted to outlaw the policies of free enterprise, and that's what we're seeing a rash of. North Carolina, Mississippi, and Idaho.
 

L.T. Fan

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I don't much kow to the tyranny of the majority. Although I recognize that legislating acceptance against its wishes is no real solution, hearts and minds don't change overnight after all, and enforcing an ideal not reflected by your population will polarize people against it.

I'm far more opposed to legislation against inclusion than I am in favor of legislation requiring it. If Target or whoever is allowed to make its own decision, than I can let my dollars do the talking. But the plurality shouldn't be permitted to outlaw the. policies of free enterprise, and that's what we're seeing a rash of. North Carolina, Mississippi, and Idaho.
Screwball answer. Inclusion is not even a remote part of this. These folks are already a part of society and have not been targeted or deprived from using public rest rooms. They are simply forbidden to use the ones not intended for them. Hell I can't go into ladies restrooms and that is the way it should because I am not a woman. Even if I wanted to pretend to be a women for a few minutes I shouldn't be allowed to enter. What twisted logic says if you want to pretend or believe you are something else it is permissible to do something that is immoral or illegal or circumvent others rights and wishes.
 

townsend

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Screwball answer. Inclusion is not even a remote part of this. These folks are already a part of society and have not been targeted or deprived from using public rest rooms. They are simply forbidden to use the ones not intended for them. Hell I can't go into ladies restrooms and that is the way it should because I am not a woman. Even if I wanted to pretend to be a women for a few minutes I shouldn't be allowed to enter. What twisted logic says if you want to pretend or believe you are something else it is permissible to do something that is immoral or illegal or circumvent others rights and wishes.
This is the crux of the issue, that people believe that trans people are pretending. It show's a despicable lack of empathy. To dismiss someone out of hand because you don't understand them. It's the same reason we spent half a century sending gays to camps, so they can get fixed. Because a person who isn't experiencing what they're experiencing can write them as flawed or obstinate or delusional. I suspect you've never had a conversation with a trans person.
 

townsend

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It's harmless to you, it's harmless to me but it may not be harmless to the 10 year old girl who is exposed to a penis for the first time in her life.
How would this happen in a women's restroom, with stalls? Unless it's a person actively revealing them self? Which we can agree is a separate and illegal action.
 

townsend

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It's not necissarily in a restroom.
So how? How does a trans woman show her penis in a women's restroom? How would a person see another person's genitals in a restroom full of stalls without a person actively exposing themselves, like the man who was arrested, or the child spying on them in the stall, which would clearly not be the fault of the spied upon party.
 

L.T. Fan

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This is the crux of the issue, that people believe that trans people are pretending. It show's a despicable lack of empathy. To dismiss someone out of hand because you don't understand them. It's the same reason we spent half a century sending gays to camps, so they can get fixed. Because a person who isn't experiencing what they're experiencing can write them as flawed or obstinate or delusional. I suspect you've never had a conversation with a trans person.
Even if they aren't pretending how does that give them sway over others rights to not want an opposite gender in their restroom? You still insist on throwing irrelevant issues into the Frey. You may be willing to relent to the individuals be they pretenders or misaligned but most of us are not. I may not have had a conversation with a trans gender or I may have but whether they are genuine or fraudulent doesn't really matter. They are of a certain gender category and as such should access only that facility like everyone else. Simply because someone is delluded by belief or conviction doesn't change reality. If that was the case 10 year olds would be pilots in the military simply because they think or wish they are. Reality man reality.
 

Cowboysrock55

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So how? How does a trans woman show her penis in a women's restroom? How would a person see another person's genitals in a restroom full of stalls without a person actively exposing themselves, like the man who was arrested, or the child spying on them in the stall, which would clearly not be the fault of the spied upon party.
Not shut a stall door. Have a stall where there are clearly cracks to see through. Hell I've even been to a place that didn't have stall doors.
 

townsend

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Even if they aren't pretending how does that give them sway over others rights to not want an opposite gender in their restroom? You still insist on throwing irrelevant issues into the Frey. You may be willing to relent to the individuals be they pretenders or misaligned but most of us are not. I may not have had a conversation with a trans gender or I may have but whether they are genuine or fraudulent doesn't really matter. They are of a certain gender category and as such should access only that facility like everyone else. Simply because someone is delluded by belief or conviction doesn't change reality. If that was the case 10 year olds would be pilots in the military simply because they think or wish they are. Reality man reality.
Here's the thing. I'm an atheist, more or less. To me every religion is an active delusion, based around an imaginary friend. However I would never limit the free exercise of religion, just because I thought it was stupid. This even includes allowing Christian bakers, and Christian pastors refuse to perform gay weddings. Because I'm not so arrogant to dismiss what I think of as a delusion. If someone truly believes that they have a personal relationship with THE Jesus Christ, I will attempt to jive with that, even if it seems like the most ridiculous thing I've f***ing heard.

Because I don't know everything, I don't know what's going on with them, and as long as they are decent people, I'd rather not challenge their convictions. It's basic respect and humility, and I'd rather be respectful than contemptuous. I would argue that all people deserve that much.
 

townsend

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Not shut a stall door. Have a stall where there are clearly cracks to see through. Hell I've even been to a place that didn't have stall doors.
So if you were just popping a squat in an open stall and some kid watches you shit, that's your fault? I don't see that as your problem, it's th kid spying on you at that point, and you're the victim. If I'm in a men's room without stalls and some boy stares straight at my junk, I'm gonna be f***ing pissed. I don't think it's reasonable to restrict trans people for fear of children actively spying, that's not holding kids accountable to the reasonable conduct you would expect in a restroom.
 

L.T. Fan

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Here's the thing. I'm an atheist, more or less. To me every religion is an active delusion, based around an imaginary friend. However I would never limit the free exercise of religion, just because I thought it was stupid. This even includes allowing Christian bakers, and Christian pastors refuse to perform gay weddings. Because I'm not so arrogant to dismiss what I think of as a delusion. If someone truly believes that they have a personal relationship with THE Jesus Christ, I will attempt to jive with that, even if it seems like the most ridiculous thing I've f***ing heard.

Because I don't know everything, I don't know what's going on with them, and as long as they are decent people, I'd rather not challenge their convictions. It's basic respect and humility, and I'd rather be respectful than contemptuous. I would argue that all people deserve that much.
They aren't being mistreated by anyone's conversation here nor is anyone advocating such. Why you're taking this position is a mystery to me. The primary gist of what is being said is do not enter this area because you don't legitimately belong. They are being deprived of nothing. They are not persecuted, they are not being judged, nor are they being harmed in any of this dialogue. They are simply being directed to the appropriate facility because even if nature has played a trick on them it isn't an automatic right for them to visit that on others. It really not a hard issue to deal with. Your responses seem to think no one can possibly be correct about their position being stated.
 
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Cotton

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Screwball answer. Inclusion is not even a remote part of this. These folks are already a part of society and have not been targeted or deprived from using public rest rooms. They are simply forbidden to use the ones not intended for them. Hell I can't go into ladies restrooms and that is the way it should because I am not a woman. Even if I wanted to pretend to be a women for a few minutes I shouldn't be allowed to enter. What twisted logic says if you want to pretend or believe you are something else it is permissible to do something that is immoral or illegal or circumvent others rights and wishes.
/thread
 

townsend

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They aren't being mistreated by anyone's conversation here nor is anyone advocating such. Why you're taking this position is a mystery to me. The primary gist of what is being said is do not enter this area because you don't legitimately belong. They are being deprived of nothing. They are not persecuted, they are not being judged, nor are they being harness in any of this dialogue. They are simply being directed to the appropriate facility because even if nature has played a trick on them it isn't an automatic right for them to visit that on others. It really not a hard issue to deal with. Your responses seem to think no one can possibly be correct about their position being stated.
So these people believe they are a different gender than their physical sex. It's a firmly held facet of their identity, as crucial to them as your religion is to you.

Since they believe they are their gender, they wish to use their gender's restroom. To force them into the wrong restroom is to disavow their personal conviction, their identity. To say, "I know you think your a woman, but that's just a delusion, if you want to take a shit, you have to admit you're a man"

It's an act of disrespect. In the same way that forcing you to disavow your religion to use a facility might be.
 

Cotton

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This is the crux of the issue, that people believe that trans people are pretending. It show's a despicable lack of empathy. To dismiss someone out of hand because you don't understand them. It's the same reason we spent half a century sending gays to camps, so they can get fixed. Because a person who isn't experiencing what they're experiencing can write them as flawed or obstinate or delusional. I suspect you've never had a conversation with a trans person.
They are pretending. Unequivocally. Again, you try this comparison to sexuality. You can't compare the two. One is a feeling and one is fully anatomical. It really is simple. If you were born a man, you are a man and absolutely nothing you do can change that. So, at that point, you're pretending to be something you are not. Period.
 

Cotton

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So, townsend is fine with expanding the rights of a small part of the population (because they are psychologically unstable) at the expense of the other 90% of the country. Sounds retarded, doesn't it? Yeah, I thought so, too.
 

Cotton

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So these people believe they are a different gender than their physical sex. It's a firmly held facet of their identity, as crucial to them as your religion is to you.

Since they believe they are their gender, they wish to use their gender's restroom. To force them into the wrong restroom is to disavow their personal conviction, their identity. To say, "I know you think your a woman, but that's just a delusion, if you want to take a shit, you have to admit you're a man"

It's an act of disrespect. In the same way that forcing you to disavow your religion to use a facility might be.
Good lord. You are just trolling at this point. You have to be. You can't seriously believe this drivel.
 

townsend

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They are pretending. Unequivocally. Again, you try this comparison to sexuality. You can't compare the two. One is a feeling and one is fully anatomical. It really is simple. If you were born a man, you are a man and absolutely nothing you do can change that. So, at that point, you're pretending to be something you are not. Period.
The answer is more complex than that, sex and gender aren't the same thing. Gender is a nuanced construction of natural tendencies and societal expectations, half ingrained and half imaginary.

Frankly I think we're have a very poor understanding of the human psyche, and dickholes like Freud only pushed us very far in the wrong direction. We're like the Ancient Greeks equating health to the balance of the four humors. Our oversimplified perspectives are do not allow for us to properly analyze transexuality, but we can't just insist that the Earth to flat for convenience sake.
 

skidadl

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I accidentally took a leak in a woman's restroom one time. It was awkward when I was walking out and some ladies were walking in.
 
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