Archer: How Brock Osweiler could influence Cowboys' QB decision

Genghis Khan

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Haha so they are either a once in a decade QB prospect or not worth a top pick.
Exactly. Nobody scrambled to trade up for Roethlisberger for example, but I'd be quite with drafting him at 4 this year. I think Wentz is a good comparison to him.
 

ravidubey

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Exactly. Nobody scrambled to trade up for Roethlisberger for example, but I'd be quite with drafting him at 4 this year. I think Wentz is a good comparison to him.
No one was scrambling to get to the top of the 2005 draft either. Yet here we stand with Smith and Rodgers making the playoffs every year for 5 and 8 years respectively.
They really don't have to be at Luck' s level now. Luck was drafted to start. He was advanced for a rookie. Goff or Wentz have the tools and potential. They will just need to be honed and seasoned. They will have that luxury with Dallas theoretically.
Everyone has said there is no Luck type QB in this draft. But Wentz or Goff could be longterm quality starters. The issue we've been saying with this draft is not only isn't there a once in a decade type QB but guys like Bosa, Buckner, Ramsey, Jack, etc aren't top end franchise caliber DL, DB or LB's either.

As for Archer's article, it's about being hesitant on drafting a QB if he end up walking in 4 years and you developed him for someone else. That won't be the case. The issue with drafting Wentz or Goff should only come down to the evaluation process and whether we feel one will end up being a quality starter in the league.
Haha so they are either a once in a decade QB prospect or not worth a top pick.
Wow, OK in any of those cases were the QB's in question a TOP 5 PICK??

Roethlisberger wasn't even in the top 10. Alex Smith was let go by the team that drafted him and taken 1st by a team with need. Rodgers was picked in the 20's, so he's not at all what I'm talking about.

Luck was the 1st player taken and worthy of that high pick. Washington thought RG3 was that guy too, and traded a truckload of picks to the Rams to move up a *few spots* and take him.

Cam Newton was rated as barely a top ten pick in the draft and ended up going 1st overall to Carolina because they had a need and didn't want to lose him.

In this case Tennessee has an opportunity to make a mint like the Rams in 2012. But is ANYONE biting?

Are Wentz and Goff really Cam Newton? Are they even worthy of being fools gold like RG3 was?

Or are we reaching because we SO desperately want them to be franchise QB's? No one had even heard of Wentz, and here we're thinking 4th overall. Does that not strike you as odd?
 
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Jiggyfly

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Wow, OK in any of those cases were the QB's in question a TOP 5 PICK??

Roethlisberger wasn't even in the top 10. Alex Smith was let go by the team that drafted him and taken 1st by a team with need. Rodgers was picked in the 20's, so he's not at all what I'm talking about.

Luck was the 1st player taken and worthy of that high pick. Washington thought RG3 was that guy too, and traded a truckload of picks to the Rams to move up a *few spots* and take him.

Cam Newton was rated as barely a top ten pick in the draft and ended up going 1st overall to Carolina because they had a need and didn't want to lose him.

In this case Tennessee has an opportunity to make a mint like the Rams in 2012. But is ANYONE biting?

Are Wentz and Goff really Cam Newton? Are they even worthy of being fools gold like RG3 was?

Or are we reaching because we SO desperately want them to be franchise QB's? No one had even heard of Wentz, and here we're thinking 4th overall. Does that not strike you as odd?
If any of these QB's where in this draft they would be top 5 picks.

Bruckner would not be a top 5 pick in most drafts and certainly not Elliot.
 

townsend

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Wow, OK in any of those cases were the QB's in question a TOP 5 PICK??

Roethlisberger wasn't even in the top 10. Alex Smith was let go by the team that drafted him and taken 1st by a team with need. Rodgers was picked in the 20's, so he's not at all what I'm talking about.

Luck was the 1st player taken and worthy of that high pick. Washington thought RG3 was that guy too, and traded a truckload of picks to the Rams to move up a *few spots* and take him.

Cam Newton was rated as barely a top ten pick in the draft and ended up going 1st overall to Carolina because they had a need and didn't want to lose him.

In this case Tennessee has an opportunity to make a mint like the Rams in 2012. But is ANYONE biting?

Are Wentz and Goff really Cam Newton? Are they even worthy of being fools gold like RG3 was?

Or are we reaching because we SO desperately want them to be franchise QB's? No one had even heard of Wentz, and here we're thinking 4th overall. Does that not strike you as odd?
Roethlisberger would have been a top 5 pick if he hadn't come out in 2004. Smith was traded, after taking his first team to the NFC Championship, by way of winning a shoutout with Drew Bree's in the divisional round. Rodgers would not have been considered a reach at #1 overall.

There's some economics to this. No one picks a franchise QB other don't need. So if a lot of teams need a franchise QB, a huge bidding war can happen. What your asking is why isn't there a run on franchise QBs, that we know of, and you naturally assume it's an absence of talent, when it's more likely an absence of demand.
 

ravidubey

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What your asking is why isn't there a run on franchise QBs, that we know of, and you naturally assume it's an absence of talent, when it's more likely an absence of demand.
Townsend, do you believe there isn't a demand for QB's out there? I see as high a demand as there's ever been. Kirk Cousins has been franchised. Kirk. Cousins.

BTW, Smith was a FA and not re-signed by his drafting team.

If any of these QB's where in this draft they would be top 5 picks.

Bruckner would not be a top 5 pick in most drafts and certainly not Elliot.
You're saying this draft is bereft of the top 5 talent of most other drafts so we should settle for one of the QB's since we're not going to find building block talent anyway?

In this case definitely trade down so the suckers can get these QB's.

But IMHO Buckner would be a strong addition. I think Calais Campbell has shown teams you don't have to find a sack-artist to gain major impact for the better part of a decade.

And for the fiftieth time, I think Elliott would be a lazy pick at 4 and that a good GM could trade down and still get Elliott. You won't be able to trade down and still get Buckner.
 
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Jiggyfly

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You're saying this draft is bereft of the top 5 talent of most other drafts so we should settle for one of the QB's since we're not going to find building block talent anyway?

In this case definitely trade down so the suckers can get these QB's.

But IMHO Buckner would be a strong addition. I think Calais Campbell has shown teams you don't have to find a sack-artist to gain major impact for the better part of a decade.

And for the fiftieth time, I think Elliott would be a lazy pick at 4 and that a good GM could trade down and still get Elliott. You won't be able to trade down and still get Buckner.
I have been the the most vocal about judging these guys on there merit and not need and would not have an issue with going with someone else if they are graded higher.

But that has nothing to do with your argument about where other QB's were drafted, this is a weak draft for top end talent and everybody outside of Tunsil would probably not be top 5 in most drafts.

I am never for settling but there is a legitimate argument that Goff and Wentz are worthy of being a top 5 pick in this draft.
 

townsend

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Townsend, do you believe there isn't a demand for QB's out there? I see as high a demand as there's ever been. Kirk Cousins has been franchised. Kirk. Cousins.

BTW, Smith was a FA and not re-signed by his drafting team.
So your wondering why the Redskins, who just got ruined by trading everything to get RG3 aren't clamoring to trade back into the top of the 1st?

If Kirk Cousins turns out to be a mediocre starter Washington should cling to him desperately, because a mediocre career would make him the best Redskin QB since the 90s.

Smith was traded:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000349633/article/niners-turn-alex-smith-trade-into-five-players

He was a viable starter before he was benched for Kaepernick, and was a viable starter when he went to the Chiefs, meanwhile Kaepernick imploded.
 

VA Cowboy

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None of the top prospects this year would be top 5 picks in most drafts. If there were legit top 5 prospects at other positions who ranked head and shoulders above Wentz/Goff then I would be all for passing on QB.

But if I were a betting man I'd put money on us not taking a QB at 4. Probably draft defense or trade down. I don't see Jerry using that high of a pick on a QB he's expecting will have to sit for at least 2-3 years. Definitely won't trade up for a QB with this being the case and since one will probably be gone before we pick we likely won't take our #2 QB option at 4.

I'd say their thinking is since any QB they take will have to sit and develop they'll wait and take someone they think has potential in the 3rd or 4th, minimizing the risk while getting a more immediate starter at 4.

Only problem is Wentz/Goff are much better than any QB who will be available in the 3rd or 4th. But if we aren't sold on either at 4 then I'd prefer not wasting a day 2 pick on a lesser QB prospect. But with no legit backup in place I think we're going to do just that.
 

Clay_Allison

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Wow, OK in any of those cases were the QB's in question a TOP 5 PICK??

Roethlisberger wasn't even in the top 10. Alex Smith was let go by the team that drafted him and taken 1st by a team with need. Rodgers was picked in the 20's, so he's not at all what I'm talking about.

Luck was the 1st player taken and worthy of that high pick. Washington thought RG3 was that guy too, and traded a truckload of picks to the Rams to move up a *few spots* and take him.

Cam Newton was rated as barely a top ten pick in the draft and ended up going 1st overall to Carolina because they had a need and didn't want to lose him.

In this case Tennessee has an opportunity to make a mint like the Rams in 2012. But is ANYONE biting?

Are Wentz and Goff really Cam Newton? Are they even worthy of being fools gold like RG3 was?

Or are we reaching because we SO desperately want them to be franchise QB's? No one had even heard of Wentz, and here we're thinking 4th overall. Does that not strike you as odd?
Phillip Rivers was drafted at 4th overall, and he was a guy who was not projected that high. You scout one of these guys to be Phillip Rivers, you pull the trigger.
 

ravidubey

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Phillip Rivers was drafted at 4th overall, and he was a guy who was not projected that high. You scout one of these guys to be Phillip Rivers, you pull the trigger.
OK, I'll buy that.

I think Rivers was one of those players every fan hoped their team would draft "at the end of the 1st/top of the 2nd round".

When this trend happens, I've noticed the players tend to go top ten or fifteen. Aaron Donald would be another such example.

Goff was getting the same kind of buzz weeks before the senior bowl.

Maybe Goff is the next Philip Rivers. Statistically Rivers and Goff are similar, though Goff physically more resembles a slightly skinnier Matt Ryan.
 

Smitty

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Goff has been a top of the first round guy for months. He fits the classic Matt Ryan "maybe not Peyton Manning/Andrew Luck but just a cut below" mold.

Wentz is your Philip Rivers late riser, but the important distinction is that CONSENSUS has him moving from a 2nd-3rd rounder into the upper levels of the first round by draft day. Consensus has Wentz as at least a top 10-15 pick and if he ends up going top 5, no one will be really shocked, just like Philip Rivers.

You must contrast this late riser with guys who were consensus 2nd/3rd rounders on draft day who then had a team reach to select them in the first. 2011 is your classic example of this with both Jake Locker and Christian Ponder deminstrating why you don't reach for consensus 2nd day QBs in the first round. Other examples include JP Losman, Brandon Weeden, and EJ Manuel.

Thats not to say there are no QBs in Wentz/Goff's class who bust. Blaine Gabbert was thought of by many as a top 5 pick. On draft day he slid a little and he subsequently busted. He was an example of a guy who teams dissected and then said "maybe this guy doesn't belong top 5" and they were right. I have a subcategory of this class where I think the QBs were valid top 5-10 talents but fell for other reasons and then due to circumstances (not talent) they washed out of the NFL.... I'd place Byron Leftwich, Matt Leinart, Brady Quinn and Johnny Manziel in this category.

Finally you have the class for small school guys/raw-but-talented guys who never climb into the top 10 but still end up being good first round selections.... These players are considered raw or projects which costs them on draft day (whether it turns out to be true or not).... Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Jay Cutler.... This is where Paxton Lynch will fit in. Busts occur in this category too, though, see: Kyle Boller and Josh Freeman.

Anyway, that is my QB draft prospect classification system. Wentz and Goff fit in the categories where I would select them. As I've said, they could still bust. Mark Sanchez was in the Matt Ryan category and he kinda busted. But being in that category means you don't hesitate to take him, in my book, if you need a QB.
 
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Clay_Allison

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OK, I'll buy that.

I think Rivers was one of those players every fan hoped their team would draft "at the end of the 1st/top of the 2nd round".

When this trend happens, I've noticed the players tend to go top ten or fifteen. Aaron Donald would be another such example.

Goff was getting the same kind of buzz weeks before the senior bowl.

Maybe Goff is the next Philip Rivers. Statistically Rivers and Goff are similar, though Goff physically more resembles a slightly skinnier Matt Ryan.
Matt Ryan not only went 3rd overall, he was passed over by a QB needy team at #1 overall.
 

L.T. Fan

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Wow, OK in any of those cases were the QB's in question a TOP 5 PICK??

Roethlisberger wasn't even in the top 10. Alex Smith was let go by the team that drafted him and taken 1st by a team with need. Rodgers was picked in the 20's, so he's not at all what I'm talking about.

Luck was the 1st player taken and worthy of that high pick. Washington thought RG3 was that guy too, and traded a truckload of picks to the Rams to move up a *few spots* and take him.

Cam Newton was rated as barely a top ten pick in the draft and ended up going 1st overall to Carolina because they had a need and didn't want to lose him.

In this case Tennessee has an opportunity to make a mint like the Rams in 2012. But is ANYONE biting?

Are Wentz and Goff really Cam Newton? Are they even worthy of being fools gold like RG3 was?

Or are we reaching because we SO desperately want them to be franchise QB's? No one had even heard of Wentz, and here we're thinking 4th overall. Does that not strike you as odd?
Why is having the opportunity to have a top rated pick learn the system a reach rather than a luxury?
 

ravidubey

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Why is having the opportunity to have a top rated pick learn the system a reach rather than a luxury?
It's fine, so long as the player is special, because thin draft or not there are some very good players (or trades) the Cowboys can take with the 4th pick.

I don't want Blaine Gabbert part II.
 

L.T. Fan

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It's fine, so long as the player is special, because thin draft or not there are some very good players (or trades) the Cowboys can take with the 4th pick.

I don't want Blaine Gabbert part II.
But that's an assumption on your part. I don't think anyone wants that as well but comparing every top pick to being less than an Andrew Luck is something that can't be the standard bearer when in fact no one knows how well any Quarterback selection will work out. Even Luck has struggled. I think it might have been in his favor to have had a year or so to make the transition. Wentz or Goff may not be as developed as Luck their rookie year but the real litmus test is to see what they eventually become not what they can produce immediately.
 

ravidubey

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But that's an assumption on your part.
Not assuming Goff or Wentz are Gabbert or Luck. I don't know enough, and neither does any of us.

What I hear though is a whole lot of people wanting to end quarterback frustration by picking a QB 4th overall, whether he's worth it or not.

There's no evidence that Wentz or Goff would be significantly better than Lynch or a 2nd rounder if both were allowed to sit for a year and be carefully developed. Hell, Goff's skinny, brittle self might even make him worse than Lynch in the long run.
 

NoDak

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Oh, for fucks sake. First, nobody had ever even heard of Carson Wentz. Now we're to believe that Jared Goff is skinny and brittle?
 

Jiggyfly

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Not assuming Goff or Wentz are Gabbert or Luck. I don't know enough, and neither does any of us.

What I hear though is a whole lot of people wanting to end quarterback frustration by picking a QB 4th overall, whether he's worth it or not.

There's no evidence that Wentz or Goff would be significantly better than Lynch or a 2nd rounder if both were allowed to sit for a year and be carefully developed. Hell, Goff's skinny, brittle self might even make him worse than Lynch in the long run.
Simple question how many times has Goff missed games in college?

It's less than Wentz.
 

boozeman

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Simple question how many times has Goff missed games in college?

It's less than Wentz.
Nothing wrong with Goff.

He has had some ball security issues and a good bit of that was due to poor protection. The skinny brittle thing is perception.
 

Cotton

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Nothing wrong with Goff.

He has had some ball security issues and a good bit of that was due to poor protection. The skinny brittle thing is perception.
SMALL HANDS!!! :panic
 
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