2016 POTUS Election Thread

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Cowboysrock55

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I don't get why anyone would think a flat tax would be a good thing for the country or the economy.

I'm also not convinced fairness is what we should be striving for in our tax system. Especially considering the economic playing field is nowhere near fair in the first place.
So you think one of the main functions of the tax system is for wealth redistribution? It's fine if you do. Just curious.

What I like about a flat tax is the potential to shrink government and let the private sector flourish. I don't want people snaking around paying taxes using loopholes. I don't want to be spending billions of dollars on an IRS trying to interpret and enforce this ridiculously convoluted tax code.

By the way economically speaking a flat tax would be a good thing. As long as you are looking at the economy as a whole. Wealth redistribution through income taxes actually hurts the overall productivity of the economy but it does help to prevent the rich from being that much richer then everyone else when applied correctly. I'd just prefer to make the pie bigger for everyone.
 
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Clay_Allison

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I don't get why anyone would think a flat tax would be a good thing for the country or the economy.

I'm also not convinced fairness is what we should be striving for in our tax system. Especially considering the economic playing field is nowhere near fair in the first place.
It's not what I'd prefer, but we need a simplified tax code to break the ridiculous system of loopholes that the "1%" and especially big corporations use to hide their money.
 

Clay_Allison

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So you think one of the main functions of the tax system is for wealth redistribution? It's fine if you do. Just curious.

What I like about a flat tax is the potential to shrink government and let the private sector flourish. I don't want people snaking around paying taxes using loopholes. I don't want to be spending billions of dollars on an IRS trying to interpret and enforce this ridiculously convoluted tax code.

By the way economically speaking a flat tax would be a good thing. As long as you are looking at the economy as a whole. Wealth redistribution through income taxes actually hurts the overall productivity of the economy but it does help to prevent the rich from being that much richer then everyone else when applied correctly. I'd just prefer to make the pie bigger for everyone.
I think one of the main functions of the tax system is to bring in enough revenue to get the job done, the government taxes the rich more because (get this) they have the money.

Besides, rich people also derive more benefits from tax money by far than the poor and middle class. Who do you think ends up raking in all the pork barrel project money? Someone has to build bridges to nowhere, create a fighter plane program with no fighter planes, or a green energy companies that soak up subsidies then unceremoniously go out of business.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Besides, rich people also derive more benefits from tax money by far than the poor and middle class. Who do you think ends up raking in all the pork barrel project money? Someone has to build bridges to nowhere, create a fighter plane program with no fighter planes, or a green energy companies that soak up subsidies then unceremoniously go out of business.
Well all this is an argument for the failure of government. To me this is why all taxes should be cut drastically and goverent should be a fraction of the size it is.
 

Kbrown

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I think one of the main functions of the tax system is to bring in enough revenue to get the job done, the government taxes the rich more because (get this) they have the money.

Besides, rich people also derive more benefits from tax money by far than the poor and middle class. Who do you think ends up raking in all the pork barrel project money? Someone has to build bridges to nowhere, create a fighter plane program with no fighter planes, or a green energy companies that soak up subsidies then unceremoniously go out of business.
But mainstream conservatives want to stop all this too. I mean, they spend all their time complaining about unfairness to wealthy people, but they care about this stuff. Honest. They'll get around to taking care of it.
 

Clay_Allison

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Well all this is an argument for the failure of government. To me this is why all taxes should be cut drastically and goverent should be a fraction of the size it is.
Well, unfortunately I've never seen a Republican not named Ron Paul who wanted to do any of that. For the most part Republicans are all in on subsidies, bailouts, and anti-competitive regulation for any corporation big enough to buy them, same as the Democrats.

It's hard to get interested in whether someone is "liberal" or "conservative" when the word "corrupt" applies equally.
 

Jiggyfly

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I have mainly been ambivalent about Trump and laughed at him as a joke.

But the more I actually listen to him the more dismayed I become, yes all politicians lie and tell you what you want to hear, but they at least try and build what they say around some set of facts and policies.

Trump does not even try, how can he garner so much support with platform of I will make it better because I am so great, at what point does he have to lay out one concrete policy proposal?

And you see people say they go to his rallies to hear for themselves what he has to say and it's the same thing every time, I mean how long can 1 man prop himself and contiually pat himself on the back before people start to get turned off.

I mean this shit has to get old at some point right?
 

townsend

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I have mainly been ambivalent about Trump and laughed at him as a joke.

But the more I actually listen to him the more dismayed I become, yes all politicians lie and tell you what you want to hear, but they at least try and build what they say around some set of facts and policies.

Trump does not even try, how can he garner so much support with platform of I will make it better because I am so great, at what point does he have to lay out one concrete policy proposal?

And you see people say they go to his rallies to hear for themselves what he has to say and it's the same thing every time, I mean how long can 1 man prop himself and contiually pat himself on the back before people start to get turned off.

I mean this shit has to get old at some point right?
Trump is kind of running on his cult of personality. So he can do what he does best bluster and no substance. Imagine trying to talk down anyone who's in a cult, and I think it's a pretty similar to any conversation with a Trump supporter. They respond to his authoritativeness and his perceived invincibility.

The worst part about cults, is that even intelligent people can get sucked into them, I think it appeals to a more primal follower instinct that hijacks rational thought. This guy is so confident, so unapologetic, so invincible to criticism that people just naturally want to follow him. This is also why he's managed to rip so many people off over the years, people want to believe.
 

Jiggyfly

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Trump is kind of running on his cult of personality. So he can do what he does best bluster and no substance. Imagine trying to talk down anyone who's in a cult, and I think it's a pretty similar to any conversation with a Trump supporter. They respond to his authoritativeness and his perceived invincibility.

The worst part about cults, is that even intelligent people can get sucked into them, I think it appeals to a more primal follower instinct that hijacks rational thought. This guy is so confident, so unapologetic, so invincible to criticism that people just naturally want to follow him. This is also why he's managed to rip so many people off over the years, people want to believe.
I can see some parallels, but usually in a cult they isolate you so there message is the only one you hear.

These people interact with others every day, Not calling him Hitler bucause I don't think he is particularly racist but the parallels are there with the whole group think thing, It's really exsposing the mindset of a significent portion of the country.
 

townsend

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I can see some parallels, but usually in a cult they isolate you so there message is the only one you hear.

These people interact with others every day, Not calling him Hitler bucause I don't think he is particularly racist but the parallels are there with the whole group think thing, It's really exsposing the mindset of a significent portion of the country.
They don't have the classic cult isolation dynamic working, but Trump voters self isolate (as many politically polarized folks do) they actively ignore any opposing viewpoint, which is why it's so freaking hard to get a Trump supporter to engage you in an honest conversation about Trump.

Not every cult has an indoctrination associated with it. Especially in the early goings on people just gravitate behind a charismatic figure. The brainwashing usually comes later. Obviously I don't think Trump is intent on founding a cult, he's just a sociopath playing on all of the same instincts that pulls people into cults.
 

L.T. Fan

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They don't have the classic cult isolation dynamic working, but Trump voters self isolate (as many politically polarized folks do) they actively ignore any opposing viewpoint, which is why it's so freaking hard to get a Trump supporter to engage you in an honest conversation about Trump.

Not every cult has an indoctrination associated with it. Especially in the early goings on people just gravitate behind a charismatic figure. The brainwashing usually comes later. Obviously I don't think Trump is intent on founding a cult, he's just a sociopath playing on all of the same instincts that pulls people into cults.
Why would anyone want to engage anyone else about Trump when all that person wanted to do was to ridicule you about him?
 

townsend

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Why would anyone want to engage anyone else about Trump when all that all a person wanted to do was to ridicule you about him?
Well for instance, I'm not a huge Hillary fan, but I can make a case for her, I can make a case for Sanders, Cruz, and Rubio. The people that support those people even when I disagree with them are willing to engage in a dialogue.

I'm not one for ridiculing people by default, even if a Trump supporter was willing to engage in the same way a Bernie, Hillary, or Cruz supporter would tend to, I'd be happy to hear them out, but in my experience Trump supporters are uniquely unwilling discuss Trump. Compare that to an average Sanders supporter (who face plenty of ridicule as this thread will attest) who you can't get to shut up about their favorite candidate.
 

L.T. Fan

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Well for instance, I'm not a huge Hillary fan, but I can make a case for her, I can make a case for Sanders, Cruz, and Rubio. The people that support those people even when I disagree with them are willing to engage in a dialogue.

I'm not one for ridiculing people by default, even if a Trump supporter was willing to engage in the same way a Bernie, Hillary, or Cruz supporter would tend to, I'd be happy to hear them out, but in my experience Trump supporters are uniquely unwilling discuss Trump. Compare that to an average Sanders supporter (who face plenty of ridicule as this thread will attest) who you can't get to shut up about their favorite candidate.
I hear what you are saying but the basis for you not making a case for him is exactly where the rub Is for someone that supports him. They are not hung up on him not being a professional politician. They seem to prefer the idea that he isn't and feel this is what is needed now.
 

townsend

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I hear what you are saying but the basis for you not making a case for him is exactly where the rub Is for someone that supports him. They are not hung up on him not being a professional politician. They seem to prefer the idea that he isn't and feel this is what is needed now.
And for Ben Carson I can understand the premise. He was very good at his job. I've had discussions with Ben Carson supporters. We disagree, but a conversation happens. Ron and Rand were both doctors, before they went to congress after all.

Perhaps the fact that Trunp's prestigious resume can't endure a light scratch of the surface, unlike Carson, is why his supporters don't allow for criticism. It feels like a cultish tendency to block out ones own cognitive dissonance. If you're willing to admit that the Easter Bunny might not exist, Santa Claus is next on the chopping block. If you question the great leader then maybe you've been wrong to follow him all along.
 

skidadl

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What little I've seen on the debates is extremely embarrassing. Sometimes I can't believe what this country has become.

Like seriously, is this jerry springer? Making fun of the size of a guy's hands during a debate to get cheap applaudes or shock? So pathetic.
 

L.T. Fan

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And for Ben Carson I can understand the premise. He was very good at his job. I've had discussions with Ben Carson supporters. We disagree, but a conversation happens. Ron and Rand were both doctors, before they went to congress after all.

Perhaps the fact that Trunp's prestigious resume can't endure a light scratch of the surface, unlike Carson, is why his supporters don't allow for criticism. It feels like a cultish tendency to block out ones own cognitive dissonance. If you're willing to admit that the Easter Bunny might not exist, Santa Claus is next on the chopping block. If you question the great leader then maybe you've been wrong to follow him all along.
That response means nothing to them. They have seen thousands of professional politicians come and go. They are of the opinion that the politicians brought about the existing conditions and Trump represents someone who is opposed to the entrenched system. It's a simple as that. All your analytical commentary is so much rhetoric in their ears. No need to make it complicated. It's a very simple phenomenal movement. One can agree or disagree but that's the plain simple explanation. As to Carson he probably doesn't represent someone that is fed up with the system because of his mild temperament.
 

Clay_Allison

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That response means nothing to them. They have seen thousands of professional politicians come and go. They are of the opinion that the politicians brought about the existing conditions and Trump represents someone who is opposed to the entrenched system. It's a simple as that. All your analytical commentary is so much rhetoric in their ears. No need to make it complicated. It's a very simple phenomenal movement. One can agree or disagree but that's the plain simple explanation. As to Carson he probably doesn't represent someone that is fed up with the system because of his mild temperament.
I agree with this. He represents blind anger, and that's all people need when so much of the country is so angry about the state it's in.
 

Jiggyfly

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That response means nothing to them. They have seen thousands of professional politicians come and go. They are of the opinion that the politicians brought about the existing conditions and Trump represents someone who is opposed to the entrenched system. It's a simple as that. All your analytical commentary is so much rhetoric in their ears. No need to make it complicated. It's a very simple phenomenal movement. One can agree or disagree but that's the plain simple explanation. As to Carson he probably doesn't represent someone that is fed up with the system because of his mild temperament.
And this makes it OK to elect him president?

Since when is anger the solution to a problem would you tell your kids to solve a problem througj anger, do you use anger to solve problems.

At what point do you start waying the cons of electing him at what point is being angry not enough?
 

BipolarFuk

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And this makes it OK to elect him president?

Since when is anger the solution to a problem would you tell your kids to solve a problem througj anger, do you use anger to solve problems.

At what point do you start waying the cons of electing him at what point is being angry not enough?
It just doesn't matter to a huge portion of the population. Millions, including the majority of this board, will vote (R) no matter what. Millions will vote (D) no matter what. The rational thinkers in the middle decide Presidents.
 
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