Abortion... yeah or nah?

Cowboysrock55

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I think the crux of the matter is when we determine something deserves human rights. Because just a living thing doesn't make your life sacred. Most people (and presumable the rite majority of pro lifers) eat the shit out of some pretty developed and intelligent life forms.
Yeah most draw the line between human and not human.
 

L.T. Fan

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From a scientific since life never didn't exist. Sperm are alive.

The question becomes when is it definable as being more than just a living thing, when is it approximate to the sentient creature we should universally recognized as sacred, and so sacred that we have to suppress someone else's rights to protect it.
Every fetus of each species is just a living thing but almost 100% of the time they all become distinctly a bear or a cow or a human and the didn't get that designation when their brain developed enough to be able to understand what species they were. They were designated at conception. The human fetus is human at conception and almost always stays that way unless they are tampered with.
 

townsend

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Every fetus of each species is just a living thing but almost 100% of the time they all become distinctly a bear or a cow or a human and the didn't get that designation when their brain developed enough to be able to understand what species they were. They were designated at conception. The human fetus is human at conception and almost always stays that way unless they are tampered with.
Well obviously sentient thought isn't what makes something human, since newborns and toddlers aren't sentient. I'm just saying they have a brain perceptive enough that extinguishing it, amounts to ending a life, as opposed to disposing of a growth of tissue.

Since we can safely assume that a sperm and an egg aren't human, and zygote isn't human, but that a new born is. We're stuck with a lot of touch questions as to how, when and why it becomes a human in between. I don't think there's a scientific way of going about this either, since it's such a nebulous and subjective concept.

The only thing I can say is that the pro life crowd has pushed too far in forbidding abortion in the incredibly early stages, since granting something as being human in the first trimester is pretty audacious, and it is coupled with a complete disregard for the woman's rights in the matter.
 

L.T. Fan

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Well obviously sentient thought isn't what makes something human, since newborns and toddlers aren't sentient. I'm just saying they have a brain perceptive enough that extinguishing it, amounts to ending a life, as opposed to disposing of a growth of tissue.

Since we can safely assume that a sperm and an egg aren't human, and zygote isn't human, but that a new born is. We're stuck with a lot of touch questions as to how, when and why it becomes a human in between. I don't think there's a scientific way of going about this either, since it's such a nebulous and subjective concept.

The only thing I can say is that the pro life crowd has pushed too far in forbidding abortion in the incredibly early stages, since granting something as being human in the first trimester is pretty audacious, and it is coupled with a complete disregard for the woman's rights in the matter.
But being sentient is your own sentiment about what you perceive as life's beginning. It arbitrary on your part because most pro lifers disagree about when life begins. Don't expect all those folks to buy into your perception.
 

townsend

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But being sentient is your own sentiment about what you perceive as life's beginning. It arbitrary on your part because most pro lifers disagree about when life begins. Don't expect all those folks to buy into your perception.
I don't need people to buy into my perception, frankly I haven't studied fetal growth and development enough (yet) to arrive at a thoughtful conclusion as to when humanity begins. But since it's subjective, an outright ban, at the expense of female reproductive rights is no more thoughtful or logical than banning contraceptives outright. Since you might be preventing a human from existing by doing so, and some people would and have drawn the line there.

Some time before the 2nd semester is my thought, because it doesn't seem cruel. That whatever is being exterminated will not perceive it as such. That's not sentience, mind you. Animals know when they're being threatened, babies know when they're being threatened. It's the difference between how I feel when I kill a plant compared to how I would feel if I killed an animal.
 

fortsbest

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What politician is fighting for no limitations on abortions?
Maybe not "no" limitations, but just google late term abortions. Way too much information to put here. Suffice it to say, the pro-abortion folk that speak out would prefer no limitations on abortion at all and in most cases I believe they have that. A few places have a 20-24 week limitation on having an abortion though. And Hillary and her ilk pander to that crowd so those are the politicians of whom I speak.
 

townsend

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Maybe not "no" limitations, but just google late term abortions. Way too much information to put here. Suffice it to say, the pro-abortion folk that speak out would prefer no limitations on abortion at all and in most cases I believe they have that. A few places have a 20-24 week limitation on having an abortion though. And Hillary and her ilk pander to that crowd so those are the politicians of whom I speak.
There's a lot of BS propaganda against the pro choice crowd courtesy of extremists on the pro life side. Think the PETA of pro life (which is to say, even though animal rights are a good thing PETA is a bunch of lying assholes). Most of what you hear about late term abortions are manufactured nonsense, or stuff from different countries.

The main reason pro choice fight for a lack of restrictions on 'late term' stuff is most of the rules are written by dumbasses who couldn't tell a uterus from a hole in the ground. So women are required to carry stillborns to term.

Here's a story of 5 women who failed to get treatment and had terrible infections after suffering miscarriages, thanks to the idiotic rules of the catholic hospital

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/18/michigan-catholic-hospital-women-miscarriage-abortion-mercy-health-partners


There have been bills that have been written (but not passed to my knowledge) that would criminalize miscarriages if the prospective mother could not prove there was no human involvement in it.

http://www.legis.ga.gov/legislation/en-US/display/31965

http://le.utah.gov/~2010/bills/static/HB0012.html

And that's why the pro choice people can get defensive of partial birth abortions. Because some pro lifers in the position to write bills are fucking rabid.

There's genuine and reasonable fear that this crusade against late term abortions (which are extraordinarily rare) is done at the expense of women's rights and safety, and frankly used as a cudgel to attack all forms of abortion.

It's the same way gun control activists will point to terrorist attacks to prove guns should be illegal. It's a bs emotional ploy.
 
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fortsbest

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There's genuine and reasonable fear that this crusade against late term abortions (which are extraordinarily rare) is done at the expense of women's rights and safety, and frankly used as a cudgel to attack all forms of abortion.
It's the same way gun control activists will point to terrorist attacks to prove guns should be illegal. It's a bs emotional ploy.
I can't argue the point that their aren't extremists on either side of the issue. We wouldn't have health clinic bombings if that weren't the case. I can't really comment on the women's rights thing with an unbiased heart either since I don't think abortions should be legal regardless the period of pregnancy. I can see the need for it if the mother's life is threatened. Beyond that the rest of the more liberal here will just have to consider me a neanderthal. Sorry
 

townsend

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I can't argue the point that their aren't extremists on either side of the issue. We wouldn't have health clinic bombings if that weren't the case. I can't really comment on the women's rights thing with an unbiased heart either since I don't think abortions should be legal regardless the period of pregnancy. I can see the need for it if the mother's life is threatened. Beyond that the rest of the more liberal here will just have to consider me a neanderthal. Sorry
I think people can get along with different perspectives. I think the important thing to realize is there are plenty of reasonable people on both sides of the argument.
 

Jiggyfly

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Maybe not "no" limitations, but just google late term abortions. Way too much information to put here. Suffice it to say, the pro-abortion folk that speak out would prefer no limitations on abortion at all and in most cases I believe they have that. A few places have a 20-24 week limitation on having an abortion though. And Hillary and her ilk pander to that crowd so those are the politicians of whom I speak.
No need to google late term abortions I know what they are.

That has nothing to do with the fact that nobody wants unrestricted abortions and want late-term abortions in only the most extreme cases.

I think you are the one who needs to google, I have seen nothing showing anyone advocating for no limitations on abortions.


Where do you get this stuff from?
 

fortsbest

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We may have different ideas of what no limitations are. Anytime there is any group advocating term limits on abortion you have fierce opposition to it including politicians. Whether it is 20 weeks, 24 weeks or any other term. The pro abortion crowd fight against it strongly. That is what I mean. They don't want any restriction on when a woman can decide to abort a baby. regardless the frequency, it does happen and not always for medical necessity. That is all.
 

townsend

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As long as abortions are practiced by physicians. There will always be restrictions. In the extraordinarily unlikely situation where a mom carries a baby late into pregnancy, and then changes her mind at the last second. I would wager that 99.9% of doctors wouldn't do a later term on demand.
 

Jiggyfly

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We may have different ideas of what no limitations are. Anytime there is any group advocating term limits on abortion you have fierce opposition to it including politicians. Whether it is 20 weeks, 24 weeks or any other term. The pro abortion crowd fight against it strongly. That is what I mean. They don't want any restriction on when a woman can decide to abort a baby. regardless the frequency, it does happen and not always for medical necessity. That is all.
You keep saying this and I have yet to find ant evidence, please show some proof.

What happens regardless of the frequency?

How do you know what happens where are you getting this information from?
 

Cowboysrock55

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As long as abortions are practiced by physicians. There will always be restrictions. In the extraordinarily unlikely situation where a mom carries a baby late into pregnancy, and then changes her mind at the last second. I would wager that 99.9% of doctors wouldn't do a later term on demand.
You have more faith in doctors then I do. There are some amazing ones. But there are other ones who don't give a shit. It's just like any profession, but if you look you can find doctors doing some pretty shady stuff.
 

townsend

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You have more faith in doctors then I do. There are some amazing ones. But there are other ones who don't give a shit. It's just like any profession, but if you look you can find doctors doing some pretty shady stuff.
Possibly... possibly it's my libertarian leanings, but I'd rather trust doctors and patients to make the morally correct decision, than have that morality legislated. Especially since I feel like most of the pro life legislators do not have people's best interest at heart.
 

L.T. Fan

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Possibly... possibly it's my libertarian leanings, but I'd rather trust doctors and patients to make the morally correct decision, than have that morality legislated. Especially since I feel like most of the pro life legislators do not have people's best interest at heart.
Maybe so. All of us have our preferences as to what should and should not be legislated but in matters of life and death it is a sure bet it will be legislated. The only thing remaining is whether it's done in a way you agree with. Back to square 1.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Possibly... possibly it's my libertarian leanings, but I'd rather trust doctors and patients to make the morally correct decision, than have that morality legislated. Especially since I feel like most of the pro life legislators do not have people's best interest at heart.
I trust people to be able to make decisions about their own life. The problem arises when you trust a doctor or parent to make a decision about someone elses life. Aka the baby in their tummy. If their is a class of people who actually deserve the protection of government it's children.
 

townsend

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I trust people to be able to make decisions about their own life. The problem arises when you trust a doctor or parent to make a decision about someone elses life. Aka the baby in their tummy. If their is a class of people who actually deserve the protection of government it's children.
Government botches that badly very often. CPS is toxic and tends to punish parents arbitrarily, based on the size of the chip on a caseworkers shoulder. Truancy laws amount to little more than a money making scheme that punishes poor people as disproportionally as CPS, and usually ends up making kids miss more school than they would have without intervention.

I guess my point is that government regulation requires its agents to operate in good faith, in the above circumstances and in the legislation of the pro life agenda, I feel there's very little of that in the works. "Think of the children" has kind of been the battle cry for crusading morons for the better part of 4 decades.
 

Cowboysrock55

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"Think of the children" has kind of been the battle cry for crusading morons for the better part of 4 decades.
No need to cry to me about CPS, I have as much experience with them as anyone. And I'm the one representing the parents usually. The problem with CPS and the law in that area is that it's not bright lines. It's a bunch of wishy washy shit. They take kids out of a home for minor reasons and then leave kids in another home who are being horribly mistreated. The judge basically takes the case worker's recommendation as gold. Caseworkers have as much of an agenda as anyone.

The nice thing about abortions is that it's much easier to draw a bright line. I don't think anyone should be having abortions outside of the first trimester unless the mother's life is at grave danger. And I'm ok putting that in a doctor's hands to decide. At that point malpractice suits would keep them in line.
 
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townsend

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No need to cry to me about CPS, I have as much experience with them as anyone. And I'm the one representing the parents usually. The problem with CPS and the law in that area is that its not bright lines. It's a bunch of wishy washy shit. They take kids out of a home for minor reasons and them leave kids in another home who are being horribly mistreated. The judge basically takes the case workers recommendation as gold. Caseworkers have as much of an agenda as anyone.

The nice thing about abortions is that it's much easier to draw a bright line. I don't think anyone should be having abortions outsode of the first trimester unless the mothers life is at grave danger. And I'm ok puttung that in a doctor's hands to decide. At that point malpractice suits would keep them in line.
I think we're pretty close to being in perfect agreement then.
 
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