Hill: Linehan and Marinelli Extended

Cowboysrock55

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How's it not relevant when we're talking about Marinelli's DL talent model to not discuss the ideal he's striving for?

In the free agency era, the "rush men" undersized model only works when you've got three top-fifteen picks up front. Talent makes up for the net lack of power. Either that or you attack in waves, and you can't build DL's that deep anymore.

I don't think the model works without spending the high picks, and we can't dedicate that many resources on the DL given what we've spent on the OL.

Bottom line Marinelli's model isn't a fit for us (or maybe anyone).
That's like saying our offensive model only works with first round picks everywhere. Well um duh. Those are usually your most talented players. We have 3 first rounders on the Oline. First rounders at WR and RB. We could do the same thing on the defense.

Of course the Bears only had 1 first rounder on the Dline when he had an elite defense. Henry Melton, Paea and a bunch of random DEs did great. And then one first rounder in Peppers.

How many first rounders are on our defense right now? Byron Jones? That's it. And you said first rounders everywhere. But now say only 3. That Tampa defense didn't have first rounders everywhere. They had lots of mid round talent that played elite in that system.
 

ravidubey

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That's like saying our offensive model only works with first round picks everywhere. Well um duh. Those are usually your most talented players. We have 3 first rounders on the Oline. First rounders at WR and RB. We could do the same thing on the defense.

Of course the Bears only had 1 first rounder on the Dline when he had an elite defense. Henry Melton, Paea and a bunch of random DEs did great. And then one first rounder in Peppers.

How many first rounders are on our defense right now? Byron Jones? That's it. And you said first rounders everywhere. But now say only 3. That Tampa defense didn't have first rounders everywhere. They had lots of mid round talent that played elite in that system.
Focusing on these (decent) points:

- Who else in post FA NFL history has had an offensive strategy like ours? Answer is no one because you need multiple top talent linemen to make it work. Even still it would be easier to replicate the Cowboys offensive model of success than to reproduce what Marinelli's wants on defense. The uber-talented 280 pound 3T that is super quick yet solid against the run and not injury prone doesn't exist outside of the high 1st round. You can still get that in the later rounds on the OL, but not at Marinelli's 3T. Not surrounded by little guys like Marinelli wants.

- The Bears did not have elite defenses. They were good at turnovers and had an elite (top-5) year in 2012. That same year they drafted "quick twitch" Shea McClellan, a pint-sized 250 pounder in the 1st round and tried him as a 4-3 DE (BUST). The 300 pound 1-T was Paea in the 2nd round the year prior. 290 pound Peppers was the top five draft pick FA, so it's 280 pound Henry Melton we're focusing on. He had a couple of good years and it turned out you couldn't build around him because he was injury prone. Big surprise. Warren Sapp he wasn't. Even with their strong secondary that defense couldn't carry the team once Martz' offense became exposed.

- I agree we need more top talents on defense and must stop rolling the dice in the 2nd round. Marinelli's formula relied on those 3 1st rounders up front. We can't commit to that.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Focusing on these (decent) points:

The uber-talented 280 pound 3T that is super quick yet solid against the run and not injury prone doesn't exist outside of the high 1st round. You can still get that in the later rounds on the OL, but not at Marinelli's 3T. Not surrounded by little guys like Marinelli wants.
Who was a 280 uber talented 3 technique? Warren Sapp :lol

Warren Sapp dreams that his fat ass could be 280 pounds. He was a legit 300 pound 3t. And Collins who currenly is our starting 3 technique, he is 311 pounds. So I have no idea where you're getting this 280 pound shit from, it's a figment of your imagination. And the closest guy to your description was Henry Melton, who was a fourth round pick at 290 pounds, and not some UBER talented high first round pick.

It's like you've come up with some alternative world in your head that no one else has ever seen.
 

ravidubey

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So I have no idea where you're getting this 280 pound shit from, it's a figment of your imagination.
Hmmm... Tyrone Crawford, our highest paid DL, was drafted to be our starting 3T, started the 2016 season at the position, and is 282 pounds.

He struggled at 3T (of course) and was moved to DE mainly because we were running out of DE's.

This has gotten a bit twisted, but the whole point is that a solid, strong DT who isn't quick twitch won't be drafted in the 1st round by this team. They just devalue clear studs like Malcolm Brown, Casey Hampton, Poe, and Brockers in the 1st round.

They might've even passed on a guy like Campbell in the early 2nd.

It's just nuts.

I like Collins and have said as much, but he was our starter at 1T while McClain was our 3T. Projecting Collins as 3T is fine by me, but that's likely not how the Cowboys envisioned him.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Hmmm... Tyrone Crawford, our highest paid DL, was drafted to be our starting 3T, started the 2016 season at the position, and is 282 pounds.
Jesus, no he wasn't. He was drafted to be a 3-4 DE in 2012 before Marinelli ever arrived in Dallas.
 

ravidubey

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Jesus, no he wasn't. He was drafted to be a 3-4 DE in 2012 before Marinelli ever arrived in Dallas.
Fine, but what about the rest?

You can't deny Crawford was extended post-Marinelli to a big contract to fill the 3T role, was our starting 3T to start the season and weighs only 282 pounds.

And again, Collins has not played 3T, and you're only speculating he's our starting 3 (which had been McClain).

I'd like it if he was, but my guess is they still want Crawford at 3 and Collins at 1.
 

Cowboysrock55

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And again, Collins has not played 3T, and you're only speculating he's our starting 3 (which had been McClain).
Um yes he has. He started as a 3 technique last season. Do you not watch the team? You'll probably have Collins at the 3 technique again next year with Paea at NT.
 

ravidubey

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Um yes he has. He started as a 3 technique last season.
Ok, but wasn't that at the end when they were resting everyone including Crawford?

Bottom line they thought Crawford was their 3T, only to have it backfire. Again.
You'll probably have Collins at the 3 technique again next year with Paea at NT.
We can only hope so, but I've given up hope they'll draft a stronger DT than Paea in the first, no matter how much we would benefit. They just don't believe the NT/1T position is worth a 1st rounder.
 

Jiggyfly

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Hmmm... Tyrone Crawford, our highest paid DL, was drafted to be our starting 3T, started the 2016 season at the position, and is 282 pounds.

He struggled at 3T (of course) and was moved to DE mainly because we were running out of DE's.

This has gotten a bit twisted, but the whole point is that a solid, strong DT who isn't quick twitch won't be drafted in the 1st round by this team. They just devalue clear studs like Malcolm Brown, Casey Hampton, Poe, and Brockers in the 1st round.

They might've even passed on a guy like Campbell in the early 2nd.

It's just nuts.

I like Collins and have said as much, but he was our starter at 1T while McClain was our 3T. Projecting Collins as 3T is fine by me, but that's likely not how the Cowboys envisioned him.
Really Ravi, Crawford was drafted to be our starting 3 Tech?:picard

Malcolm Brown and Poe and Brockers are clear studs?

The three guys that less sacks than Collins, Crawford and McClain had each ........... combined.:lol
 

dallen

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We were still running a 3-4 when Crawford was drafted...
 

ravidubey

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Really Ravi, Crawford was drafted to be our starting 3 Tech?:

Malcolm Brown and Poe and Brockers are clear studs?

The three guys that less sacks than Collins, Crawford and McClain had each ........... combined.:lol
He wasn't drafted to be the 3T, but he was resigned to a large contract to be.

You (and the Cowboys) missed my whole point, BTW, about the 1T. They don't get sacks, but they greatly improve the effectiveness of the defense.

So you can have Crawford and McClain, and I'll take Brown and Brockers. :lol
 

BipolarFuk

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I don't understand the Marinelli hate.

There simply aren't any DC's out there that could motivate and scheme these bunch of JAGs into a better defense than he has.
 

ravidubey

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I don't understand the Marinelli hate.

There simply aren't any DC's out there that could motivate and scheme these bunch of JAGs into a better defense than he has.
I think he's a great coach.

IMO he needs to stay away from personnel evaluation as he devalues some positions in favor of others in the first round.

He also doesn't value size enough on the DL, and I think you need a mix to succeed unless you are loaded with all-timer talent.
 

boozeman

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I think he's a great coach.

IMO he needs to stay away from personnel evaluation as he devalues some positions in favor of others in the first round.

He also doesn't value size enough on the DL, and I think you need a mix to succeed unless you are loaded with all-timer talent.
He can't stay away from personnel evaluation. His system is very role defined and makes it necessary to include him unfortunately. He did the same thing in Detroit...campaigned for some shots in the dark.
 

Jiggyfly

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He wasn't drafted to be the 3T, but he was resigned to a large contract to be.

You (and the Cowboys) missed my whole point, BTW, about the 1T. They don't get sacks, but they greatly improve the effectiveness of the defense.

So you can have Crawford and McClain, and I'll take Brown and Brockers. :lol
:lol
 

ravidubey

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He can't stay away from personnel evaluation. His system is very role defined and makes it necessary to include him unfortunately. He did the same thing in Detroit...campaigned for some shots in the dark.
I know what you are saying is true, and that's what makes it incredibly frustrating.
 

Cotton

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He can't stay away from personnel evaluation. His system is very role defined and makes it necessary to include him unfortunately. He did the same thing in Detroit...campaigned for some shots in the dark.
Yeah, scheme fit is a major factor in the players brought in for his defense. That said, I think he is a good coach who has done more with less.
 
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