America's 'everything' fighter jet is a total disaster

Kbrown

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If it worked the way it was planned, I'd think the return would being able to more effectively engage our enemies. To keep our troops out of harms way more, etc...

The kill our enemies twice line was pretty funny, tho.
That's not a return on investment any more than the intended effect of welfare. A "return on investment" constitutes financial gain. At least that's how Schmitty explained it when talking about investing in infrastructure. :unsure

In any case, the military is just as much a bloated government agency as any other. Hell, the 1 trillion could have gone to help support veterans. If 1 trillion had gone to some Dept. Of Education boondoggle, Republicans would be livid.

We could be cutting the military's overall size, focusing on directly protecting our own borders from attack. Instead we still seem to be following the Cold War playbook of dumping funds into weapons projects. I don't get it.
 

Jiggyfly

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Social Security disability for starters. I realize most people don't actually get to see this stuff but I actually do up close and first hand. What type of welfare expires?
The percentage of people on full disability is a very low percentage to begin with and the percentage of people abusing it makes that number even lower.

How does this have any bearing on a number like the 1.3 trillion talked about.

If you don't know about time limits in welfare you are more unimformed than I thought.

http://www.mdrc.org/sites/default/files/full_607.pdf
Key Findings
• States have developed widely varying approaches to time limits. States have broad flexibility
in designing time-limit policies, in large part because the federal time limit does not apply to
state-funded benefits. Currently, 40 states have time limits that can result in the termination of families’
welfare benefits; 17 of those states have limits of fewer than 60 months. However, nearly half
the national welfare caseload is in states that either have no time limit (2 states) or a time limit that
reduces or modifies benefits when the limit is reached (8 states and the District of Columbia).

• All states allow exceptions to time limits, but the specific policies and their implementation
vary. All states allow exemptions (which stop the time-limit clock), extensions, or both. Exemptions
are most common for “child only” cases (which account for about one-third of all welfare
cases nationwide and are not subject to time limits in any state) and for recipients with medical
problems. In many states, recipients who comply with work requirements but are unable to find jobs
can receive extensions, although states define and assess compliance in different ways. As a result,
some states routinely grant extensions to recipients reaching time limits, while others close most of
these cases.

• Nationally, about 231,000 families have reached a time limit; at least 93,000 families have
had their welfare case closed due to a time limit, and another 38,000 have had their benefits
reduced. Most of the case closures have been in a few states with time limits of fewer than 60
months. As of December 2001, families had begun reaching the federal time limit in fewer than
half the states, and relatively few families had reached the 60-month limit in those states; most recipients
do not remain on welfare for 60 consecutive months.

• The circumstances of families who left welfare due to time limits are diverse and depend on
state policies. In some states, most recipients whose cases have been closed due to time limits
were already working while on welfare; in other states, time-limit leavers are more heterogeneous.
Most studies find that time-limit leavers are struggling financially, but they are not consistently
experiencing more or fewer hardships than families who left welfare for
You are set up to see a high number of these people but that can't be extrapolated to the wider population as a whole.
 

NoDak

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That's not a return on investment any more than the intended effect of welfare. A "return on investment" constitutes financial gain. At least that's how Schmitty explained it when talking about investing in infrastructure. :unsure

In any case, the military is just as much a bloated government agency as any other. Hell, the 1 trillion could have gone to help support veterans. If 1 trillion had gone to some Dept. Of Education boondoggle, Republicans would be livid.

We could be cutting the military's overall size, focusing on directly protecting our own borders from attack. Instead we still seem to be following the Cold War playbook of dumping funds into weapons projects. I don't get it.
I don't care about republican/democrat. Or woulda coulda shoulda. Or the term 'return on investment'. I was only speaking on the hoped for return. As in, what were they hoping to accomplish with this project.
 

Cowboysrock55

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That's not a return on investment any more than the intended effect of welfare. A "return on investment" constitutes financial gain. At least that's how Schmitty explained it when talking about investing in infrastructure. :unsure
Actually return on investment literally just means you have an agreement to receive something in return for the money you put into it. In this case the government's return is a really shitty plane that doesn't function (Obviously they were hoping for a really cool plane). Meaning, it was a really poor return on investment. Welfare actually has no return on investment because there is no agreement for the government to receive anything in return. Meaning people receive welfare with no agreement to do anything in return.

They are just very different things. I am cool with some welfare though. For example with children, I think society has an obligation to make sure they are taken care of. I actually agree with medicaid as well. Again because it makes sure that everyone has access to health care services.

The welfare system needs an overhaul just like many other areas of government. Including our military. They need to be run more efficiently and effectively. The main problem with anything government run is that it is highly inefficient and widely abused.
 

Cowboysrock55

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All states allow exceptions to time limits
So yes, you can stay on it for forever.

The statistics back up exactly what I am saying. Here they are:



The numbers don't continue increasing like that if people are actually getting off welfare on a regular basis like you suggest.
 

L.T. Fan

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I would be interested to know this fighter was an "investment." Investments typically have returns, correct? What is the return if this thing worked? Ability to kill our enemies twice?
Nope. Investments have risk. The idea is to have return but there is an adage "the higher the risk the greater the reward." It's a gamble.
 
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Jiggyfly

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So yes, you can stay on it for forever.

The statistics back up exactly what I am saying. Here they are:



The numbers don't continue increasing like that if people are actually getting off welfare on a regular basis like you suggest.
Come on Rock.:lol

I gave you the actual facts of time limits of welfare and the numbers of people whose benefits have run out.

But I guess it's easier to ignore the facts than realize your initial argument holds little weight.

There are numerous reason for the numbers to be increasing other than people being on welfare for life.

And let's not forget your real issue was people not working at all which is still a very small percentage here.

Most of this welfare is supplementing people who have jobs.

Also welfare spending has been down since a peak in 2010.

And almost half of that is Medicaid

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/welfare_spending_analysis
 

Cowboysrock55

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Come on Rock.:lol

I gave you the actual facts of time limits of welfare and the numbers of people whose benefits have run out.
I quoted exactly what you posted which explicitly said in it that there are exceptions to every time limit. Which means, that there is no actual time limit.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Also another great graph that shows how things are getting worse in America

 

townsend

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Those half a dozen are the rarity. There is a reason the number of people on welfare goes up annually.
I'd be very interested in the number of chronic welfare recipients compared to the ones that use it to get back on their feet.
 

Clay_Allison

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No but I'd rather invest money in something that has a chance to succeed then to throw my money in the trash. The fighter jet was a poor investment choice. But it was still at least an investment. Giving stuff away is a guaranteed zero return game.

Should have invested the money in medical research or alternative energy instead. Even though those things also have the potential to fail.
That program was corporate welfare for Lockheed Martin from the very start, lobbyists drove its adoption and drove its continuation a decade after it was obvious that it was an utter failure, pretending it was an investment is a joke.
 

Kbrown

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So, by that first chart, so far this one failed military project has cost more than what the federal government spends on the entirety of welfare in a year.
 

townsend

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So, by that first chart, so far this one failed military project has cost more than what the federal government spends on the entirety of welfare in a year.
But it's okay, lining millionaires pockets for nothing is far more virtuous.
 

Cowboysrock55

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That program was corporate welfare for Lockheed Martin from the very start, lobbyists drove its adoption and drove its continuation a decade after it was obvious that it was an utter failure, pretending it was an investment is a joke.
Yeah, this whole thing reads like a bunch of corrupt politicians.
 

Cowboysrock55

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So, by that first chart, so far this one failed military project has cost more than what the federal government spends on the entirety of welfare in a year.
This has been going on for over a decade. So it's not really fair to compare spending over a decade with the spending in a single year.
 

Clay_Allison

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This has been going on for over a decade. So it's not really fair to compare spending over a decade with the spending in a single year.
Yeah, but that's only one project, defense spending is loaded with this stuff and it's easy for corrupt politicians to get away with because in a lot of cases multi billion dollar pork projects can be classified top secret.
 

Jiggyfly

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I quoted exactly what you posted which explicitly said in it that there are exceptions to every time limit. Which means, that there is no actual time limit.
I guess you missed this.
Nationally, about 231,000 families have reached a time limit; at least 93,000 families have
had their welfare case closed due to a time limit, and another 38,000 have had their benefits
reduced.
Most of the case closures have been in a few states with time limits of fewer than 60
months. As of December 2001, families had begun reaching the federal time limit in fewer than
half the states, and relatively few families had reached the 60-month limit in those states; most recipients
do not remain on welfare for 60 consecutive months.
So that refutes your argument as a whole.

And you never addressed the fact that most people on welfare have jobs.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Yeah, but that's only one project, defense spending is loaded with this stuff and it's easy for corrupt politicians to get away with because in a lot of cases multi billion dollar pork projects can be classified top secret.
Yeah I despise pork barrel spending. There is a shit ton of it in this country. Half the federal funding of stuff goes to basically shit.
 

Cowboysrock55

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I guess you missed this.


So that refutes your argument as a whole.
Not really at all. That still leaves a shit ton of people on welfare.

Also there seems to be something seriously flawed about those stats since they clearly don't include many welfare programs. Does the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program ever kick you off? Not that I'm aware of. HUD doesn't have an expiration that I'm aware of. SSI obviously never has an expiration like we talked about. Maybe your stats only refer to TANF but that has like a 5 year time limit. So that wouldn't make sense.

My guess is your statistics are honing in on just a singular welfare program but clearly that's not what we are talking about.
 
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L.T. Fan

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But it's okay, lining millionaires pockets for nothing is far more virtuous.
I wonder how many employees jobs are derived from this project? All the expenditure isn't just going into corporate pockets.
 
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