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Thread: Trump Thread...

  1. #61
    Senior Member Kbrown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggyfly View Post
    So we should ignore what the intell is saying?

    I really do not see what is strange, should this just be ignored?
    You do this false hypothetical response thing that is a bit annoying.

    I just find it a bold declaration from a President with a reputation for measured responses at a time when the intelligence community appeared not to be in full agreement. Granted, now the FBI has been brought in line.

    To me, it just seems to fit in a pattern of escalating rhetoric on Russia stretching back to before the election. Since we are trading in hypotheticals, I think you probably would be able to see this pattern if the parties were switched.

  2. #62
    Senior Member townsend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kbrown View Post
    You do this false hypothetical response thing that is a bit annoying.

    I just find it a bold declaration from a President with a reputation for measured responses at a time when the intelligence community appeared not to be in full agreement. Granted, now the FBI has been brought in line.

    To me, it just seems to fit in a pattern of escalating rhetoric on Russia stretching back to before the election. Since we are trading in hypotheticals, I think you probably would be able to see this pattern if the parties were switched.
    Could the escalating rhetoric also track with Putin's audacity? This isn't being made in a vacuum. Putin has begun annexing sovereign states, backing Syria's genocidal reclamation of Aleppo, and interfered with our election to install a presidential candidate (and by extension a Sec of State, and National security advisor) that he'll likely have some influence over.

    There's a certain point where tolerating dictator's bad behavior for the sake of peace becomes tantamount to an appeasement strategy.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Kbrown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by townsend View Post
    Could the escalating rhetoric also track with Putin's audacity? This isn't being made in a vacuum. Putin has begun annexing sovereign states, backing Syria's genocidal reclamation of Aleppo, and interfered with our election to install a presidential candidate (and by extension a Sec of State, and National security advisor) that he'll likely have some influence over.

    There's a certain point where tolerating dictator's bad behavior for the sake of peace becomes tantamount to an appeasement strategy.
    When we are cautioning against "appeasement" in situations like Syria in which we should not have involved ourselves in the first place, it becomes clear that all we have in this country are two war parties.

  4. #64
    Senior Member townsend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kbrown View Post
    When we are cautioning against "appeasement" in situations like Syria in which we should not have involved ourselves in the first place, it becomes clear that all we have in this country are two war parties.
    Our involvement in Syria has been minimal. We're more involved (on the wrong side) of Saudi Arabia's war on Yemen. But it seems like the prevailing criticism of Obama is that he's been too much of a dove, after getting his fingers burned in Libya. That he let Russia run wild, and backed down from confrontation in Syria.

    Russia implanting Trump into the whitehouse is sort of an indictment of a live and let live foreign policy. Now NATO, and our alliances in Asia are at risk of being destabilized. Dont forget that Putin himself is a relic of the Cold War, and now he has a chance to destroy the mechanisms that kept the USSR in check.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Kbrown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by townsend View Post
    Our involvement in Syria has been minimal. We're more involved (on the wrong side) of Saudi Arabia's war on Yemen. But it seems like the prevailing criticism of Obama is that he's been too much of a dove, after getting his fingers burned in Libya. That he let Russia run wild, and backed down from confrontation in Syria.

    Russia implanting Trump into the whitehouse is sort of an indictment of a live and let live foreign policy. Now NATO, and our alliances in Asia are at risk of being destabilized. Dont forget that Putin himself is a relic of the Cold War, and now he has a chance to destroy the mechanisms that kept the USSR in check.
    And that criticism is of Obama is wrong. Our failure has been to speak and act in the interest of global democracy as an ideology, when we should be acting on behalf of our people. He openly called for regime change, drew phony red lines, and provided material support to rebels with questionable aims. Now we are worried about appeasement.

    It's also clearly hyperbole to say Russia "installed" Trump. Come on now.

  6. #66
    Senior Member townsend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kbrown View Post
    And that criticism is of Obama is wrong. Our failure has been to speak and act in the interest of global democracy as an ideology, when we should be acting on behalf of our people. He openly called for regime change, drew phony red lines, and provided material support to rebels with questionable aims. Now we are worried about appeasement.

    It's also clearly hyperbole to say Russia "installed" Trump. Come on now.
    I'll claim some hyperbole. But Russia's involvement definitely affected the outcome, since a one percent shift would have reversed the outcomes in the EC.

    I don't think Trump is any kind of Manchurian candidate but I think it's fair to say Putin will have influence over guys like Flynn, Tillerson, and possibly Trump himself, depending on whether he's able/willing to divest himself of his Russian business ties.

  7. #67
    Senior Member NoDak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kbrown View Post
    You do this false hypothetical response thing that is a bit annoying.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Jiggyfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kbrown View Post
    You do this false hypothetical response thing that is a bit annoying.

    I just find it a bold declaration from a President with a reputation for measured responses at a time when the intelligence community appeared not to be in full agreement. Granted, now the FBI has been brought in line.

    To me, it just seems to fit in a pattern of escalating rhetoric on Russia stretching back to before the election. Since we are trading in hypotheticals, I think you probably would be able to see this pattern if the parties were switched.
    It's not a party thing I just don't see it as some kind odd conspiracy.

    I think it is a real issue that needs to be addressed and not a pattern of escalating aggresion.

    I definitley don't see Obama as a hawk.

    How is it a false hypothetical by asking you what you think the proper response should be?

    What is false about that question?

  9. #69
    Senior Member Jiggyfly's Avatar
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    KBrown.

    Sorry if you thought I was calling you out because I respect what you have to say on these matters.

    I am strongly anti-interventionist but I think its past time for some Putin pushback

  10. #70
    Senior Member fortsbest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggyfly View Post
    There is a lot of truth to this but you have to factor in that the "Liberal" president has just been treated the same way by conservatives for the last 8 years.

    Of course they are going to hold Trump to the same standards.
    Most conservatives have respectfully disagreed with his politics as have I. I only later in his presidency took a personal disliking to him because of his personal targeting of law enforcement and the general condescending attitude he took to most that disagreed with him. I can think of a few, but not many Republicans who were as hateful as Reid and Pelosi. The things that I read in the media now for Trump are down right slanderous in many regards.

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