10 dead in Oregon Community College shooting

jsmith6919

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Didn't even Thomas Jefferson himself say that the Constitution should be revisited every so often and redone for changing times?
He also said "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
 

townsend

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Didn't even Thomas Jefferson himself say that the Constitution should be revisited every so often and redone for changing times?
If the US is willing to pass an amendment to repeal the 2nd amendment, then yes.
 

BipolarFuk

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I'm not for disarming the country by any means, but I also don't think it is against the Constitution to have a waiting period to get your gun so people can check to see if you are a fucking nutcase.
 

BipolarFuk

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Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of nineteen years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right. It may be said, that the succeeding generation exercising, in fact, the power of repeal, this leaves them as free as if the constitution or law had been expressly limited to nineteen years only. In the first place, this objection admits the right, in proposing an equivalent. But the power of repeal is not an equivalent. It might be, indeed, if every form of government were so perfectly contrived, that the will of the majority could always be obtained, fairly and without impediment. But this is true of no form. The people cannot assemble themselves; their representation is unequal and vicious. Various checks are opposed to every legislative proposition. Factions get possession of the public councils, bribery corrupts them, personal interests lead them astray from the general interests of their constituents; and other impediments arise, so as to prove to every practical man, that a law of limited duration is much more manageable than one which needs a repeal." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:459, Papers 15:396

Let us provide in our constitution for its revision at stated periods. What these periods should be nature herself indicates. By the European tables of mortality, of the adults living at any one moment of time, a majority will be dead in about nineteen years. At the end of that period, then, a new majority is come into place; or, in other words, a new generation. Each generation is as independent as the one preceding, as that was of all which had gone before. It has then, like them, a right to choose for itself the form of government it believes most promotive of its own happiness; consequently, to accommodate to the circumstances in which it finds itself that received from its predecessors; and it is for the peace and good of mankind that a solemn opportunity of doing this every nineteen or twenty years should be provided by the constitution, so that it may be handed on with periodical repairs from generation to generation to the end of time, if anything human can so long endure." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:42

Forty years [after a] Constitution... was formed,... two-thirds of the adults then living are... dead. Have, then, the remaining third, even if they had the wish, the right to hold in obedience to their will and to laws heretofore made by them, the other two-thirds who with themselves compose the present mass of adults? If they have not, who has? The dead? But the dead have no rights. They are nothing, and nothing can not own something. Where there is no substance, there can be no accident [i.e., attribute]." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. (*) ME 15:42

The idea that institutions established for the use of the nation cannot be touched nor modified even to make them answer their end because of rights gratuitously supposed in those employed to manage them in trust for the public, may perhaps be a salutary provision against the abuses of a monarch but is most absurd against the nation itself. Yet our lawyers and priests generally inculcate this doctrine and suppose that preceding generations held the earth more freely than we do, had a right to impose laws on us unalterable by ourselves, and that we in like manner can make laws and impose burdens on future generations which they will have no right to alter; in fine, that the earth belongs to the dead and not the living." --Thomas Jefferson to William Plumer, 1816. ME 15:46

A generation may bind itself as long as its majority continues in life; when that has disappeared, another majority is in place, holds all the rights and powers their predecessors once held and may change their laws and institutions to suit themselves. Nothing then is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:4

The generations of men may be considered as bodies or corporations. Each generation has the usufruct of the earth during the period of its continuance. When it ceases to exist, the usufruct passes on to the succeeding generation free and unencumbered and so on successively from one generation to another forever. We may consider each generation as a distinct nation, with a right, by the will of its majority, to bind themselves, but none to bind the succeeding generation, more than the inhabitants of another country." --Thomas Jefferson to John Wayles Eppes, 1813. ME 13:270
 

Cotton

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Didn't even Thomas Jefferson himself say that the Constitution should be revisited every so often and redone for changing times?
He also said "A healthy democracy has a solid revolution every 60-70 years". So, yeah, need guns for that.
 

Cotton

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I'm not for disarming the country by any means, but I also don't think it is against the Constitution to have a waiting period to get your gun so people can check to see if you are a fucking nutcase.
A lot of places do have a waiting period. But, regardless, you can't test for mental in a background check.
 

data

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We're a violent, morbid country. We celebrate defiance, destruction and the individual.

Gun laws or not, American culture causes mass shootings. It's as American as apple pie.
 

BipolarFuk

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A lot of places do have a waiting period. But, regardless, you can't test for mental in a background check.
You can check to see if the person has ever had mental problems.

Check the person's criminal record, his health records, any fucking records you can.

And if it takes a month to get your fucking gun, oh well.
 

Cowboysrock55

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A lot of places do have a waiting period. But, regardless, you can't test for mental in a background check.
No instead people get rejected for dumb shit like a DWI or misdemeanor assault while the crazy gets through and shoots up a school.
 

Cotton

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We're a violent, morbid country. We celebrate defiance, destruction and the individual.

Gun laws or not, American culture causes mass shootings. It's as American as apple pie.
Correct. It will be our undoing.
 

Cotton

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You can check to see if the person has ever had mental problems.

Check the person's criminal record, his health records, any fucking records you can.

And if it takes a month to get your fucking gun, oh well.
How many 20 year olds have a mental record?
 

Cotton

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No instead people get rejected for dumb shit like a DWI or misdemeanor assault while the crazy gets through and shoots up a school.
See above.
 

townsend

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I don't want to own a gun. Ever. The only situation I would ever buy one. I've had friends who've been stalked and been in fear for their lives. Those people don't deserve to wait 7 to 10 days if they want to defend themselves.
 

townsend

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A lot of abuse victims (who have a tendency to be stalked) are also frequently diagnosed with PTSD.
 

Cotton

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What's your limit of what should be restricted from public access? Would you be in support of legalizing more powerful weaponry like grenades, gatling guns, etc?

I understand I cannot buy flashbangs, even for home self-defense.
There are already restrictions on things like grenades. Class III weapons are restricted.
 

Cotton

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What's your limit of what should be restricted from public access? Would you be in support of legalizing more powerful weaponry like grenades, gatling guns, etc?

I understand I cannot buy flashbangs, even for home self-defense.
And, no, I do not support grenades and such weapons for public purchase.
 

Jiggyfly

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But why is that?

Because there is a bunch of gun crazy nuts versus a bunch of hypersensitive nancies that have created gridlock?

Gun control has happened in other civilized countries. You know cool countries. Where somehow pot smoking is okay and there is gun control too.

You can never stop nutcases.

But with a country as broad as ours and with so many socioeconomic issues to deal with, it is going to continue until someone decides enough is enough.

And then the lobbyists and corrupt fucking politicians being allowed to exist unfettered, well, it is what it is.

Anyone that suggests a damn thing about gun control gets labelled a liberal, an extremist or just a moron.

I don't own a gun. Never felt I needed one. My brother owns dozens, and keeps a well stocked arsenal.

To each their own. This they wanna tak ar gunz mentality is just what keeps reasonable changes from happening.

And there are shithead politicians swooping in on that ignorant subset of society and making a platform.
 

Clay_Allison

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I wouldn't have been in favor of it before, but I'm for upping the age restrictions on ownership of certain classes of weapons. I think it's hard to say you've really done a background check on an 18 year old. They haven't been around long enough to have a background. Young men are angrier and have less self control. Hell, an 18 year old's brain is literally not fully developed. They are nature's crash dummies, easy to rile up and radicalize, desperate for attention and dumb as bricks, by and large. I'd bump it up to age 25 for semi-auto weapons with an exception for military service. I think I wouldn't get too excited for bringing back the waiting list for people who aren't pre-cleared in a database like their state concealed carry permit registry.
 

townsend

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So hypothetically let's say we pass stricter gun restrictions. Does it stop this guy? Or does he do the same thing after a 7 day waiting period. Or after stealing a gun from his uncle. Would we just have to deal with knee-jerk after knee-jerk demanding even stricter gun laws because somehow that last one didn't solve it?

All the facts about gun control were facts before the eleventeenth tragedy, and having super deep emotions about a problem we already knew existed doesn't change any of that. Pushing regulation in the wake of a tragedy is exactly the stupidity that leads to the patriot act.
 

Jiggyfly

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So hypothetically let's say we pass stricter gun restrictions. Does it stop this guy? Or does he do the same thing after a 7 day waiting period. Or after stealing a gun from his uncle. Would we just have to deal with knee-jerk after knee-jerk demanding even stricter gun laws because somehow that last one didn't solve it?

All the facts about gun control were facts before the eleventeenth tragedy, and having super deep emotions about a problem we already knew existed doesn't change any of that. Pushing regulation in the wake of a tragedy is exactly the stupidity that leads to the patriot act.
Do we any of the facts of the case yet?

You seem to automatically be saying nothing could have been done differently, maybe this is true but you are doing exactly what Booze has been talking about dismissing any changes out of hand.
 
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