9 dead in ‘hate crime’ shooting at historic African American church in Charleston

Clay_Allison

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There is something about it that bothers me. Like a racist group can chose any symbol they want to represent their agenda and then suddenly everyone else has to eliminate it from their lives. I mean what does burning the flag or taking it down really accomplish? Does someone really think that the flag hanging somehow motivated this guy to commit mass murder. Ultimately I don't care. I have no connection to the flag personally and I'm not a racist.
I respect anyone's right to have it, I've seen it tattooed on too many prison gang members to ever have another one.

I mean, what you said could apply to the swastika as well. Sometimes enough assholes use something and there's going to be a negative assciation.
 

Clay_Allison

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I think everyone who is supporting the confederate flag should go through a week with SS bolts on one side of their neck and a swastika on the other and see what kind of people try to be friends with them in county jail. They may not like the friends they make.
 

L.T. Fan

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I think everyone who is supporting the confederate flag should go through a week with SS bolts on one side of their neck and a swastika on the other and see what kind of people try to be friends with them in county jail. They may not like the friends they make.
Seperate out the term supporting of and insert observing and you will probably find a different perspective. The Confederate flag was a symbol of a group who chose to go to war which became one of the great tragedys of this nations history. This group was also americans and there were many issues of division within their motivations. For a period of time the nation was divided and two flags represented this country but all were Americans. It was a great trauma that still divides some but it is still one of the most heartbreaking times for all Americans. It goes much deeper than a narrow perspective of a flag.
 
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Smitty

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Exactly. There is significant difference between the swastika, which (at least in this country) is not used by anyone to represent anything but hate and racism, versus the Confederate flag, which has always been more of a middle finger to the Federal government. Yes, this used to include a significant amount of animosity towards black people, who were seen as one of the reasons the big Federal government was intervening, but in today's world there are not that many mainstream racists left, at least not in the classic definition of racism.

I dont even think concern about the flag is genuine. Like I said, it's a pretext to try to associate Republicanism and conservatism with racism when it clearly isn't.
 

skidadl

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I've got a carpenter that has all sorts of racists tattoos. He's about 40 years old. Poor dude was a skin head when he was a kid. Now he's very ashamed of his tattoos. He is slowly getting them covered up. Unfortunately I can't use his in occupied homes. He can only work in vacant homes for me. I try not to let him be seen by customers and I've told him that. bsb
 

townsend

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Exactly. There is significant difference between the swastika, which (at least in this country) is not used by anyone to represent anything but hate and racism, versus the Confederate flag, which has always been more of a middle finger to the Federal government. Yes, this used to include a significant amount of animosity towards black people, who were seen as one of the reasons the big Federal government was intervening, but in today's world there are not that many mainstream racists left, at least not in the classic definition of racism.

I dont even think concern about the flag is genuine. Like I said, it's a pretext to try to associate Republicanism and conservatism with racism when it clearly isn't.
I'll admit that the confederate flag is associated with something besides extremist fringes of racism. That being said, I bet 99% of people who prominently display that flag probably have a lot to day about race if you get them to talking.

When I lived in Charleston (Goosecreek technically) I was warned more than once by my neighbors because "there were a couple of black kids wandering around the neighborhood. Whether or not that is representative of the state is debateable but there was definitely a lot more casual racism that I encountered in that state than anywhere else I've lived.

To me taking down that flag, as the state flag should amount to "a nice thing to do." After a hate crime happened in a church famous for hate crimes. It would be a great way to try and heal some deep deep wounds, and dissociate from the fringe element that has adopted that flag.

On the other hand, to me, clinging to the flag as this empty representation of the old south seems magnificently selfish. If the Swastika was also the symbol of a benign group I would still expect them to drop it once it became the flag of a genocidal regime.
 

Jiggyfly

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Seperate out the term supporting of and insert observing and you will probably find a different perspective. The Confederate flag was a symbol of a group who chose to go to war which became one of the great tragedys of this nations history. This group was also americans and there were many issues of division within their motivations. For a period of time the nation was divided and two flags represented this country but all were Americans. It was a great trauma that still divides some but it is still one of the most heartbreaking times for all Americans. It goes much deeper than a narrow perspective of a flag.
Is that not reason enough for the flag to be removed, why would you celebrate the fact that you wanted to break up this country?
 

skidadl

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I had a blow out in Waco and got a ride from a rodeo clown. True story. He went on to tell me how the Mexicans were mind Fing the good country that we live in. Lol I still don't know what he meant but it was entertaining considering that my family is 7/8 Mexican.
 

skidadl

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I'm trying to use a division tactic here in this thread. I don't think it is working.
 

L.T. Fan

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Is that not reason enough for the flag to be removed, why would you celebrate the fact that you wanted to break up this country?
You are such a dumb ass. History observance isn't celebration.
 

Smitty

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I agree it very well might be the "nice thing to do," when you consider that you should
perhaps put the discomfort of others before your own pride in displaying your heritage or pride in sending political messages, but it's still not inherently racist IMO.
 

Jiggyfly

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I don't think you know what the word "inherently" means.



The American flag itself was created under the same "particular circumstances" which were racist. The founding fathers owned slaves. There are mounds of laws, court decisions, etc, that go back to the very creation of the country, where they said "Freedom for everyone -- oh, but not for you black people, you stay in the under-class."

We, as a nation, have acknowledged that background, and are able to condemn those racist circumstances while also acknowledging that the founding fathers were way ahead of their time in terms of freedom, equality, and liberty. Never mind the fact that a flag is a piece of cloth and can't be "inherently" any kind of message, I'll go even further and say that just because the nation that founded the flag had slavery at the time, doesn't make the ideals it stands for racist.

People from the Southern states uphold the Confederate flag as a symbol of a lot of things besides racism. Some assholes use it to promote that, but if you think that the majority of southern people don't associate the flag with a multitude of ideals OTHER THAN racism, then you are the close-minded idiot, not them.

Hell, look at the British flag. The British Empire is almost single-handedly responsible for the importation of black slaves onto the American continent to begin with. If you really believed that a flag that was used to spread racism at one point in history must ALWAYS carry racist connotations, then you should be protesting the British flag like people protest the Swastika, as it was responsible for a faaaaar bigger cost of human life.

But people don't do that, because it's nonsense, and complaining about the Confederate flag is just a guise for complaining about Republican politics, so no one is fooled.

For the record, I could be convinced either way that the flag should stay or should go, because I don't know if I agree about flying the flags of other defeated former countries on government property. But it has nothing to do with the silly racism angle.
Sorry but this is just false, the American flag was not flown under the particular circumstance of wanting the right to own slaves, that's reaching even for you.

Yes there were slave owners but there were also leaders who did not belive in slave ownership.
http://americanfounding.blogspot.com/2010/08/alexader-stephens-vs-thomas-jefferson.html

Did The Founding Fathers Believe Slavery Was Morally Wrong?
"The prevailing ideas entertained by [Thomas Jefferson] and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically." This was the assessment of the collective mind of America's Founding Fathers, as offered by the vice president of the Confederate States of America, Alexander H. Stephens, in March of 1861 in his famous (or, more properly, infamous) "Cornerstone" speech.
Can any of this be said of the confederacy founders?

This was a really weak take there is a huge difference between what the motivations of the founding fathers and the arguments of the confederacy which was motivated by slave ownership.
 

Jiggyfly

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You are such a dumb ass. History observance isn't celebration.
Wow already name calling I have never seen this from you L.T.

And you really need to learn the definition of things.

v. cel·e·brat·ed, cel·e·brat·ing, cel·e·brates
v.tr.
1. To observe (a day or event) with ceremonies of respect, festivity, or rejoicing. See Synonyms at observe.
2. To perform (a religious ceremony): celebrate Mass.
3. To extol or praise: a sonnet that celebrates love.
4. To make widely known; display: "a determination on the author's part to celebrate ... the offenses of another" (William H. Pritchard).
Yeah I'm the dumb ass.
 

L.T. Fan

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Wow already name calling I have never seen this from you L.T.

And you really need to learn the definition of things.



Yeah I'm the dumb ass.
Where did you come up with celebrate?
 

Jiggyfly

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No. I am wondering who you think used this term? You just arbitrarily injected it in . I was wondering why? It is your typical approach. Juan throw something that wasn't in the discussion.
Did you not read the definition?

History observance (your words) is a celebration.

Nice try but you put your foot in it here, just smile and leave the room awkwardly.

And nice to know there will be little respect in our discussions anymore.
 

BipolarFuk

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Flying the Confederate flag as a symbol of state's rights? :lol

Right to do what? Keep people in fucking chains?
 

Clay_Allison

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I think in the particular case of SC, since they adopted the confederate flag not to oppose the federal government but to oppose the civil rights movement, their particular decision to fly it is definitely a gesture of racism. If for no other reason than that, that state should remove it.
 
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