Abortion... yeah or nah?

Jiggyfly

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In defining "life," we probably err on the side of not setting a dangerous precedent. And if you think I am going slippery slope, read Peter Singer's utilitarian argument on infanticide.

There's also the inconvenient truth of the abortion movement's roots in eugenics. Inconvenient for "compassionate liberals," anyway.
What is inconvenient about that.

Is there some secret eugenics movement afoot currently?
 

Kbrown

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What is inconvenient about that.

Is there some secret eugenics movement afoot currently?
Perhaps not, but the residuals of disregard for the inherent value of human life and the end result of primarily cleansing society of non-white children has remained, it seems.
 

Jiggyfly

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Perhaps not, but the residuals of disregard for the inherent value of human life and the end result of primarily cleansing society of non-white children has remained, it seems.
OK.:unsure

I get the parallels but I can't get on this eugenics train with you, especially the cleansing part.

Gave you missed the actual numbers concerning which demographics are growing?

And it could be argues from both sides about life being valued there are 2 lives involved.
 
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Kbrown

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This brings up the larger issue of how incoherent our political ideologies are.

Conservatives are all, "we aren't paying for shit" but "you WILL have that baby." Liberals are all "we can take care of everyone" but "don't be ashamed to kill that baby, because being poor is hard."

I don't fully understand it.
 

Kbrown

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OK.:unsure

I get the parallels but I can't get on this eugenics train with you, especially the cleansing part.

Gave you missed the actual numbers concerning which demographics are growing?

And it could be argues from both sides about life being valued there are 2 lives involved.
Yes, the non-white population is growing despite young blacks being the most common abortion patient.

There's also the issue of abortion for supposed compassion toward special needs children. Before my daughter was born, they found a little white spot on the ultrasound that can be a marker for Down's Syndrome. The doctor assured us that it was unlikely to be anything (it wasn't), but he just wanted to let us know, in case we wanted to consider terminating. Thanks, doc.
 

townsend

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The eugenics thing is a dry hole. If we disregarded everything that had a horrific and philosophically flawed origin. Well we'd pretty much have to disregard everything.

Catholicism, NASA, the United States of America, the field of science, there really isn't anything that is more than a generation old that you couldn't paint as abominable by reading old mission statements.
 

townsend

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Along that note the Anti-abortion movement that ultimately defined the law of the land from the late 19th century until the women's lib movement was largely based on the racist notion that white women weren't having enough children and that the white race would die out if middle class whites weren't forced to have more children. So eugenics is kinda playing both sides of the field when it comes to abortion.
 

Kbrown

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Along that note the Anti-abortion movement that ultimately defined the law of the land from the late 19th century until the women's lib movement was largely based on the racist notion that white women weren't having enough children and that the white race would die out if middle class whites weren't forced to have more children. So eugenics is kinda playing both sides of the field when it comes to abortion.
Positive eugenics, as bad as it is, is nowhere near as repugnant as negative eugenics.

To me overall, the "choice" issue represents the way we have sacrificed the foundation of what is good for the sake of a false freedom of the self. That is sad.
 

DCUDoomsday

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But as a person who believes life begins at conception or at least within a trimester, I am completely opposed to anyone who states you have the right to do anything that infringes on someone's right to live. This is the epitome of a libertarian position.

Like I said, it depends on when you think living starts. Obviously it's not right when the baby comes out; that's a completely arbitrary barrier. Is it feasibility? I don't buy that either because a baby isn't feasibly when it's born... If it's not subject to constant care and protection even after birth, it will die. Plus, even before feasibility a baby has scientifically proveable cognitive functioning, a nervous system, reaction to stimuli and definitely can feel pain.

To me, those factors basically equate to life to me. A woman's right to not be burdened by basically a parasite does not outweigh the right of a living human to continue living; that's the essence of libertarianism.

Once you you agree that the baby is a living human, it's no longer a question of what the licensed Doctor says... It has rights!
Which opens up a interesting question - at what point are we covered by the Constitution?
 

NoDak

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I think men and women on welfare should require sterilization. Get in front of the issue before it gets to abortion.
Is this another one of your shit stirring efforts, or do you actually believe this?
 

NoDak

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It'd work. We can soften it up later for bleeding heart liberals later.

fact of the matter is that society doesn't want these babies in the first place.
So, shit stirring then?

Noted.
 

Genghis Khan

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In defining "life," we probably err on the side of not setting a dangerous precedent. And if you think I am going slippery slope, read Peter Singer's utilitarian argument on infanticide.

There's also the inconvenient truth of the abortion movement's roots in eugenics. Inconvenient for "compassionate liberals," anyway.
I can't stand utilitarianism.

Hell, there's a strong element of eugenics behind abortion even today. There's a reason they test for Downs as early as possible. It's distasteful to say the least.
 

NoDak

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Solutions are noted as shit stirring. Cool. Let's continue to enact legislation that doesn't solve anything. Proceed.
Yeah, calling for people to be sterilized, then saying it can be 'softened for the bleeding heart liberals' later. Some solution you have there.

Proceed, indeed.
 

Jiggyfly

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This brings up the larger issue of how incoherent our political ideologies are.

Conservatives are all, "we aren't paying for shit" but "you WILL have that baby." Liberals are all "we can take care of everyone" but "don't be ashamed to kill that baby, because being poor is hard."

I don't fully understand it.
This is very true.
 

townsend

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I think one of the biggest problems with pro life movements is they tend to use late term abortion to inact harsh restriction on everything else. Much in the same way that they use "safety" to effectively outlaw abortion in the south. By overzealous and unreasonable safety standards.

I don't think that the average pro lifer is a mysoginist that wants to use forced pregnancy to force women into specific gender roles, but I absolutely believe that the rank and file of pro life are. And they use emotionally manipulative BS like the "silent scream" to pull people by the nose into going against procedures that they probably wouldn't have an objection to if they hadn't been brain washed into believing poppy sized bits of nothing were actually babies.
 

Cotton

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Yes, the non-white population is growing despite young blacks being the most common abortion patient.

There's also the issue of abortion for supposed compassion toward special needs children. Before my daughter was born, they found a little white spot on the ultrasound that can be a marker for Down's Syndrome. The doctor assured us that it was unlikely to be anything (it wasn't), but he just wanted to let us know, in case we wanted to consider terminating. Thanks, doc.
I have had people ask me "Was it hard deciding to keep your child?". Has taken everything I had not to throat punch them. We didn't know ahead of time, but even if we had it wouldn't have made a difference. She is still our child.
 

Smitty

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I think one of the biggest problems with pro life movements is they tend to use late term abortion to inact harsh restriction on everything else. Much in the same way that they use "safety" to effectively outlaw abortion in the south. By overzealous and unreasonable safety standards.

I don't think that the average pro lifer is a mysoginist that wants to use forced pregnancy to force women into specific gender roles, but I absolutely believe that the rank and file of pro life are. And they use emotionally manipulative BS like the "silent scream" to pull people by the nose into going against procedures that they probably wouldn't have an objection to if they hadn't been brain washed into believing poppy sized bits of nothing were actually babies.
Its not the size of a poppy seed after like the fourth week. Most people don't even know they are pregnant at that point. After 12 weeks it is the size of a peach, and has arms, legs, a face, etc, and is growing fast -- forget about heartbeat, that started weeks earlier. Outside the first trimester everything you say above sounds pretty silly.

Thats not "late term only."
 
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L.T. Fan

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I think one of the biggest problems with pro life movements is they tend to use late term abortion to inact harsh restriction on everything else. Much in the same way that they use "safety" to effectively outlaw abortion in the south. By overzealous and unreasonable safety standards.

I don't think that the average pro lifer is a mysoginist that wants to use forced pregnancy to force women into specific gender roles, but I absolutely believe that the rank and file of pro life are. And they use emotionally manipulative BS like the "silent scream" to pull people by the nose into going against procedures that they probably wouldn't have an objection to if they hadn't been brain washed into believing poppy sized bits of nothing were actually babies.
Did it ever occur to you that a great deal of these folks are a group of genuine and heartfelt individuals who have compassion for the unborn child.
 

townsend

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Its not the size of a poppy seed after like the fourth week. Most people don't even know they are pregnant at that point. After 12 weeks it is the size of a peach, and has arms, legs, a face, etc, and is growing fast -- forget about heartbeat, that started weeks earlier. Outside the first trimester everything you say above sounds pretty silly.

Thats not "late term only."
so presumably late term might be an over simplification, since that specifically focused on viable children that could survive outside of utero. Abortion after 12 weeks makes up 6% of total abortions, and of those many are due to medical emergencies and such.

The pro life movement uses the mostly fictitious construct of mothers getting the second trimester abortion for convenience, and tries to leverage it against the 94% of abortions performed in the first trimester, and the mothers who have had to make the heartbreaking decision to terminate a pregnancy in the 2nd trimester or later out of medical necessity. Also they go after plan B, because controlling sex is a big part of the pro life agenda.
 
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