Archer: Running back moves show part of Cowboys' dilemma

dallen · Mar 8, 2015

Plus, Tyron basically made him his bitch, or at least as close as anyone else has come

ravidubey · Mar 10, 2015

Clay_Allison said:
I've still got Lawrence Taylor, Deacon Jones, Alan Page, Ray Lewis, Deion Sanders and Bruce Smith as part of that conversation. Nothing bad about JJ Watt. I had to think hard to come up with that list, he's that good. I'd just like to see a little more of his career before I agree that he's the GOAT.

As long as you have him in the conversation, because that's where he belongs. Undersized Alan Page isn't even on my list. Deacon was a beast and as durable as they come, but I didn't get to watch him and he never faced passers like Andrew Luck.

I can tell you from having watched the others for their entire careers, none of them played like Watt does today. LT was the best of them and when he felt like it could surge with a quickness nobody I've ever seen has, but he also took plays off.

Watt isn't taking plays off. He's crazy dedicated, and that's the difference.

dallen said:
Plus, Tyron basically made him his bitch, or at least as close as anyone else has come

Ummm, dallen, meet Tryon's raped ass... Tyron's raped ass, dallen.

GShock · Mar 10, 2015

ravidubey said:
As long as you have him in the conversation, because that's where he belongs. Undersized Alan Page isn't even on my list. Deacon was a beast and as durable as they come, but I didn't get to watch him and he never faced passers like Andrew Luck.

I can tell you from having watched the others for their entire careers, none of them played like Watt does today. LT was the best of them and when he felt like it could surge with a quickness nobody I've ever seen has, but he also took plays off.

Watt isn't taking plays off. He's crazy dedicated, and that's the difference.

Ummm, dallen, meet Tryon's raped ass... Tyron's raped ass, dallen.

Tony pimped outta that one, IIRC.

ravidubey · Mar 10, 2015

GShock said:
Tony pimped outta that one, IIRC.

No thanks to Tyron, that's for sure :)

dallen · Mar 10, 2015

ravidubey said:
As long as you have him in the conversation, because that's where he belongs. Undersized Alan Page isn't even on my list. Deacon was a beast and as durable as they come, but I didn't get to watch him and he never faced passers like Andrew Luck.

I can tell you from having watched the others for their entire careers, none of them played like Watt does today. LT was the best of them and when he felt like it could surge with a quickness nobody I've ever seen has, but he also took plays off.

Watt isn't taking plays off. He's crazy dedicated, and that's the difference.

Ummm, dallen, meet Tryon's raped ass... Tyron's raped ass, dallen.

Ehh, getting beaten one time by the best lineman in the league is better than pretty much anyone else. Perhaps I used a bit of hyperbole though

NoDak · Mar 10, 2015

dallen said:
Ehh, getting beaten one time by the best lineman in the league is better than pretty much anyone else. Perhaps I used a bit of hyperbole though

Yeah, one play isn't much to get worked up over. For the most part, Watt had a pretty quiet day thanks to Smith. The one time where he did make a play, Romo pimped out and made him look foolish.

Cowboysrock55 · Mar 10, 2015

NoDak said:
Yeah, one play isn't much to get worked up over. For the most part, Watt had a pretty quiet day thanks to Smith. The one time where he did make a play, Romo pimped out and made him look foolish.

I think other then that one play Watt was basically shut out. And on that one play Romo shut Watt out. Just goes to show you that even the best O-lineman get beat sometimes.

NoDak · Mar 10, 2015

Cowboysrock55 said:
I think other then that one play Watt was basically shut out. And on that one play Romo shut Watt out. Just goes to show you that even the best O-lineman get beat sometimes.

Isn't that what I said?

Cowboysrock55 · Mar 10, 2015

NoDak said:
Isn't that what I said?

You said for the most part he had a quiet day otherwise.

I think Watt literally did nothing else the rest of the day. Wasn't disagreeing with you. Just reinforcing your thought.

Jiggyfly · Mar 10, 2015

Watt was not lined up on Smith all game he lined up at some point against everybody except Frederick.

He was very disruptive the 1st half and made both Leary and Martin look bad a couple of times, second half they all handled him well.

Watt had a great season but he also played against some of the worst o-lines in football in that division, I put Harvey Martin in league let alone prime LT, I think some are getting caught up in the moment.

Clay_Allison · Mar 11, 2015

ravidubey said:
As long as you have him in the conversation, because that's where he belongs. Undersized Alan Page isn't even on my list. Deacon was a beast and as durable as they come, but I didn't get to watch him and he never faced passers like Andrew Luck.

I can tell you from having watched the others for their entire careers, none of them played like Watt does today. LT was the best of them and when he felt like it could surge with a quickness nobody I've ever seen has, but he also took plays off.

Watt isn't taking plays off. He's crazy dedicated, and that's the difference.

Page was the MVP of the league as a defensive player. The only one ever. He had 173 sacks from the defensive tackle spot, more than any other player besides Bruce Smith, Reggie White, and Deacon Jones (only a half sack behind Jones). He also blocked 28 kicks, which is ridiculous. Not arguing that he could play today, but in his day, he was as dominant as any defensive football player ever. If that doesn't qualify for your list, you're just ignorant.

In 1967 Deacon Jones had 26 sacks vs only 458 passing attempts assuming he played every defensive snap (In 2014 the average NFL team passed 559 times). In 1968 he followed it up with 24 sacks. Make as many excuses about era as you want 50 sacks in 2 seasons is unbelievable production.

ravidubey · Mar 13, 2015

Clay_Allison said:
Page was the MVP of the league as a defensive player. The only one ever. He had 173 sacks from the defensive tackle spot, more than any other player besides Bruce Smith, Reggie White, and Deacon Jones (only a half sack behind Jones). He also blocked 28 kicks, which is ridiculous. Not arguing that he could play today, but in his day, he was as dominant as any defensive football player ever. If that doesn't qualify for your list, you're just ignorant.

In 1967 Deacon Jones had 26 sacks vs only 458 passing attempts assuming he played every defensive snap (In 2014 the average NFL team passed 559 times). In 1968 he followed it up with 24 sacks. Make as many excuses about era as you want 50 sacks in 2 seasons is unbelievable production.

I know we'd like to say we're comparing apples with apples, but we're not. You almost can't compare pass defense from 1978 onwards with what transpired before. The job got 3x as hard for defenders.

I like Jones, but those sacks have major asterisks by them. It was a different game when OL couldn't put their hands on you, the DB's could pummel WR's up and down the field until the ball was in the air, and head-slaps were legal. Shit, head-slaps were a staple of Too Tall Jones' career.

I believe a guy like Deacon Jones would have been good in any era, but I can't say for sure based on stats without having watched him.

My only impression of Alan Page is watching him get stomped in Superbowls. Highlight reels showed how early 70's Superbowl teams ran right at him, and I watched Oakland humiliate him. I mean he had this dead, defeated stare on the sidelines.

Good, even great player, but not on my very short list of GOAT candidates.

Clay_Allison · Mar 13, 2015

ravidubey said:
I know we'd like to say we're comparing apples with apples, but we're not. You almost can't compare pass defense from 1978 onwards with what transpired before. The job got 3x as hard for defenders.

I like Jones, but those sacks have major asterisks by them. It was a different game when OL couldn't put their hands on you, the DB's could pummel WR's up and down the field until the ball was in the air, and head-slaps were legal. Shit, head-slaps were a staple of Too Tall Jones' career.

I believe a guy like Deacon Jones would have been good in any era, but I can't say for sure based on stats without having watched him.

My only impression of Alan Page is watching him get stomped in Superbowls. Highlight reels showed how early 70's Superbowl teams ran right at him, and I watched Oakland humiliate him. I mean he had this dead, defeated stare on the sidelines.

Good, even great player, but not on my very short list of GOAT candidates.

If you're going to talk Super Bowl performances, you knock everyone off that list but LT, Reggie White and I guess Deion Sanders and Ray Lewis. JJ Watt hasn't done it in the playoffs yet either.

ravidubey · Mar 14, 2015

Clay_Allison said:
If you're going to talk Super Bowl performances, you knock everyone off that list but LT, Reggie White and I guess Deion Sanders and Ray Lewis. JJ Watt hasn't done it in the playoffs yet either.

Remember when Reggie White put the Superbowl on his back and first pressured then crushed Bledsoe on back-to-back-to-back plays, with another sack later sprinkled on top?

Considering the stakes, it doesn't get much more dominant than that.

I look at Watt and see a guy who works harder and produces more consistently than White. It would be awesome to see Watt in the Superbowl.

Clay_Allison · Mar 14, 2015

ravidubey said:
Remember when Reggie White put the Superbowl on his back and first pressured then crushed Bledsoe on back-to-back-to-back plays, with another sack later sprinkled on top?

Considering the stakes, it doesn't get much more dominant than that.

I look at Watt and see a guy who works harder and produces more consistently than White. It would be awesome to see Watt in the Superbowl.

That's what it's going to take to knock White off the pedestal though. Normally, you don't put Superbowl down as a qualifier for a non-QB position, but if we're talking GOAT (not just for a position but for all of defense) I think you probably have to.

Also, he needs to at least beat John Randle's 137.5 career sacks.

Archer: Running back moves show part of Cowboys' dilemma

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