The Great Police Work Thread

I must also say that as much as I disagree with Hugh's position on cops, it is much better than arguing with SP's dumbass at the DCU. At least Jeebus is fairly coherent in his thoughts.

Iamtdg said:

I must also say that as much as I disagree with Hugh's position on cops, it is much better than arguing with SP's dumbass at the DCU. At least Jeebus is fairly coherent in his thoughts.

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no u

boozeman said:

So if your boss says do something, it is okay to shoot them in the face? How about a parent?

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I don't know, are they going to shoot me for disobeying? If that is the case then okay.

To be clear, the kid deserved to be shot because he attacked a cop not because he disobeyed him.


I agree the kid should have been killed, but when you start talking civil disobedience should result in extrajudicial killings, I start talking revolution.

jeebs said:

To be clear, the kid deserved to be shot because he attacked a cop not because he disobeyed him.


I agree the kid should have been killed, but when you start talking civil disobedience should result in extrajudicial killings, I start talking revolution.

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That was not really clear from what you posted before, Hugh.

jeebs said:

No, a cop doesn't have unlimited authority, you do not have to do something just because a cop said it, and they should not be able to shoot you for it. They are just citizen, and people like you supporting them are why they are fucking hated.

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This guy got shot for trying to take the cops gun. Not for disobeying him when he was told to get out of the street.

Just randomly making shit up just makes you even less credible in your rants on the subject of policemen.

At about 01:30 in the morning, I pulled up in my cruiser to a medical office building to follow up on a theft case I was working on. The parking lot is not very well lit. As I step out of my cruiser, a man runs towards me, holding something in his right hand. It's dark, and all I can make out is that it's thin, about 6" long, and one half is wrapped in cloth. He starts swinging it around, yelling "I'll fucking kill you! I'll eat you! I'll fuck you!"

I draw my firearm, point it at him, and start giving loud verbal commands. At the same time, I radio dispatch for help. He's not responding to my commands. He's still yelling, swinging the item, making stabbing motions, making threats. He starts approaching slowly, I back off to keep distance. We start moving into the street. About that time my backup shows up. Other officers draw down on the man, start giving verbal commands. He's still not responding.

At this point, it would have been prudent to tase him, but my department doesn't equip us with tasers.

We finally end up in a well lit area across from a restaurant (and boy oh boy, were the cell phones out.) As we're continuing to go back and forth with this guy, one of my backup units gets in close enough to see that what he's holding isn't a knife, and doesn't look like a shank, either. He hits the guy with OC spray to no effect, and then moves in with a baton, striking the hand holding the object. The guy finally drops the object, we all move in and take him down. Bonus: He's covered in feces and urine.
So what was the object? All that time? A ninja turtles toothbrush.

Here's the thing: At any time during that encounter, from the time he initially approached me aggressively to the time we were finally able to see what the item was, had he charged at me or another officer, or a bystander, I (we) would have shot and killed him. Now I did have the presence of mind during the encounter to wonder if the item was in fact a knife, because I've had similar experiences before. But given his behavior, and the way he was brandishing it, I had perfectly good reason to believe that it was a weapon. More importantly, I'm not going to let my own doubts get me killed.

So what if I had killed him?

Well, the cell phone videos would be out. The media would report, initially, the most simple version of the story:

Townsville Metro Police Kill Man Wielding Toothbrush.

Reddit is pretty quick with things like this, so shortly thereafter on the front page:

Police officer MURDERS man over ninja turtles toothbrush.

The initial news headline would play out for a bit, until they got a few more details.

Townsville Metro Police Shoot Young Black Man Wielding Toothbrush.

Another media outlet, upset that they didn't get the initial scoop, goes with something a bit more sensational to grab the media consumer's attention:

Townsville Police Kill Unarmed Young Black Man.

There you have it. The average media consumer's opinion has already been formed by the headline - many won't even bother to read the story. Even if they did, the story will contain the most basic of details. Cops shoot guy, guy only has toothbrush.

Here's what the stories won't contain: My thoughts and feelings upon the initial encounter. The things that I can (or can't) see. My fear. My wondering if I'm about to kill a man, and how I'm going to deal with that. Am I going to break down like so many others? Become an alcoholic? What if it doesn't stop him? What if he kills me? I need help. Where are they? What's taking them so long? Who is this man? Why does he want to kill me? What if a bystander walks into this? I can't let him take a hostage. Goddamnit where is my backup?!

And then later: My god, I almost killed a man over a toothbrush. Would it have been justified? Maybe the courts would have exonerated me, but would I still get fired? Could I forgive myself? Great, I've got someone else's shit and piss all over me for the third time this week.

And then, much later...well, just imagine, after all that, how it feels to see someone watch a massively abbreviated news report on the incident, form an entire opinion based upon that miniscule amount of information (and their complete lack of qualified expertise or experience) and condemn me for my decisions. As weird as it sounds, this is my job - my expertise. Criticizing me for how I deal with a shit covered maniac is no different than you walking in on an open heart surgery and telling the surgeon he's using the wrong scalpel.

Don't let the media form your opinions. Understand that investigations can take a very long time. Most importantly, understand that these situations are often so massively complicated that no journalist could ever truly convey all of the details - especially what's going on in my head when I have to make that critical, life altering decision.

EDIT: The overwhelming majority of replies I'm getting sound something like "But why couldn't you just shoot him in the leg or something?" Though fairly long, this article http://www.pfoa.co.uk/110/shooting-to-wound does an excellent job of explaining why "shooting to wound" has never realistically been an option.

http://np.reddit.com/r/AskLEO/comments/2d9f3w/in_light_of_recent_and_abundant_media_coverage/cjnkn4v

NoDak said:

This guy got shot for trying to take the cops gun. Not for disobeying him when he was told to get out of the street.

Just randomly making shit up just makes you even less credible in your rants on the subject of policemen.

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i was responding to boozes comments, not the ferguson situation. I was not the one who created the hupothetical.

jeebs said:

i was responding to boozes comments, not the ferguson situation. I was not the one who created the hupothetical.

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I like it, but let's go with Hughpothetical.

So we said fuck letting all the facts come out and are now convinced Brown tried to take his gun and charged the officer.

Is that Face book post really more believable than the eyewitness accounts?

Can someone explain to me why would someone run away stop turn around and then charge an officer who has already shot at them?

Jiggyfly said:

So we said fuck letting all the facts come out and are now convinced Brown tried to take his gun and charged the officer.

Is that Face book post really more believable than the eyewitness accounts?

Can someone explain to me why would someone run away stop turn around and then charge an officer who has already shot at them?

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Actually the Facebook CNN is saying is not real, but the radio caller who gave a similar account they have confirmed as in line with the officer's report.

And there are plenty of logical explanations for charging the officer. He stops because he realizes he is fat and can't get away. He charges because he senses hesitation in the officer, he is on PCP, he has an invincibility complex, or a combination. People do wackadoo shit when they've just commited strongarm robberies.

Still has a lot more of a ring of truth than an officer with zero disciplinary record and service commendations goes bananas one day and executes a kid for being in the street. After, of course, reaching out and trying to pull him through a car window.

Not like it matters anyway. It could go to trial, and anything but a death sentence would lead the anarchist element there to start burning down the town. If I lived there, I already would have moved by now.

Jiggyfly said:

So we said fuck letting all the facts come out and are now convinced Brown tried to take his gun and charged the officer.

Is that Face book post really more believable than the eyewitness accounts?

Can someone explain to me why would someone run away stop turn around and then charge an officer who has already shot at them?

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Did you read the officers account? Thought he might be not in his right mind...on drugs or alcohol.

There were over a dozen eye witnesses that said he tried to take the cops gun, so yeah I would say the truth is now out.

Kbrown said:

Actually the Facebook CNN is saying is not real, but the radio caller who gave a similar account they have confirmed as in line with the officer's report.

And there are plenty of logical explanations for charging the officer. He stops because he realizes he is fat and can't get away. He charges because he senses hesitation in the officer, he is on PCP, he has an invincibility complex, or a combination. People do wackadoo shit when they've just commited strongarm robberies.

Still has a lot more of a ring of truth than an officer with zero disciplinary record and service commendations goes bananas one day and executes a kid for being in the street. After, of course, reaching out and trying to pull him through a car window.

Not like it matters anyway. It could go to trial, and anything but a death sentence would lead the anarchist element there to start burning down the town. If I lived there, I already would have moved by now.

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Not saying it did not happen that way but its amazing that some are taking it as gospel and if this kid could be on PCP the cop could have just snapped both are hypotheticals but both have happened before.

You have 3 different people giving the same account of him being shot and turning around and those people do not know each other so I think there accounts should hold just as much weight or do we dismiss them out of hand?

People snap all the time and cops are not above that but let's also remember the one thread of truth running through all of this is that Brown was unarmed and the cop was not in a tussle when he shot, so this talk of him being in fear of his life is something that needs to be examined closely.

Carp said:

Did you read the officers account? Thought he might be not in his right mind...on drugs or alcohol.

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Well K Brown said the report was false and even if not what would you say if you shot somebody under suspicious circumstances.

I don't know what happened, but I find it amazing that people are so quick to take that report as gospel and ignore everything that has come out.

Is it that easy for you just because the cop said he thought he was on something that explains it all away?

Iamtdg said:

There were over a dozen eye witnesses that said he tried to take the cops gun, so yeah I would say the truth is now out.

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Please show me anything that says over a dozen witnesses corroborate this.

Or are you just pulling shit out of your ass.

Jiggyfly said:

Well K Brown said the report was false and even if not what would you say if you shot somebody under suspicious circumstances.

I don't know what happened, but I find it amazing that people are so quick to take that report as gospel and ignore everything that has come out.

Is it that easy for you just because the cop said he thought he was on something that explains it all away?

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There were over a dozen witnesses that said that Brown went for the cop's gun.

A previously unnoticed detail in a background conversion of a video taken minutes after the Ferguson shooting could change the course of the investigation into Mike Brown’s death.
The original video poster appears sympathetic to the narrative that Mike Brown was shot unarmed with his hands in the air. But he unknowingly picks up conversation between a man who saw the altercation and another neighbor.

An approximate transcription of the background conversation, as related by the “Conservative Treehouse” blog, who originally discovered the conversation:
@6:28/6:29 of video
#1 How’d he get from there to there?
#2 Because he ran, the police was still in the truck – cause he was like over the truck
{crosstalk}
#2 But him and the police was both in the truck, then he ran – the police got out and ran after him
{crosstalk}
#2 Then the next thing I know he doubled back toward him cus - the police had his gun drawn already on him –
[there is dispute here whether he says "doubled back" or "coming back."]
#1. Oh, the police got his gun
#2 The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like – but he kept coming toward him
{crosstalk}
#2 Police fired shots – the next thing I know – the police was missing
#1 The Police?
#2 The Police shot him
#1 Police?
#2 The next thing I know … I’m thinking … the dude started running … (garbled something about “he took it from him”)

This is terribly important because if Mike Brown had been shot, and he advanced towards the cop instead of surrendering, it would substantiate the narrative that the policeman shot in self-defense due to the fact that he was being threatened with severe bodily harm. This corroborates an account of the event given by a friend of Officer Darren Wilson:
Well, then Michael takes off and gets to be about 35 feet away. And, Darren’s first protocol is to pursue. So, he stands up and yells, “Freeze!” Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something.”

It’s far too unlikely that these two accounts are similar accidentally, having been from such disparate sources. The apparent witness in the background conversation is speaking with detail about the tragic shooting, and in a manner that runs contrary to the widespread version. Those who watch the video need to judge for themselves if the witness sounds reliable (but he would seemingly have nothing to gain by telling such a story.)

A third piece of the puzzle would be the toxicology report. If there happens to be anything found that might explain how Mike Brown might have been shot and kept advancing toward the officer, then the defense becomes even more believable. Unless someone is emotionally invested in an alternative narrative to the extent that one might ignore plain facts.

We shall see.
Co-Authored by Kyle Becker

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/168698-eyewitness-recalls-important-detail-background-video-mins-ferguson-shooting/

video is in the link, couldn't figure out how to post it as it's not youtube

Jiggyfly said:

Well K Brown said the report was false and even if not what would you say if you shot somebody under suspicious circumstances.

I don't know what happened, but I find it amazing that people are so quick to take that report as gospel and ignore everything that has come out.

Is it that easy for you just because the cop said he thought he was on something that explains it all away?

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Is it easy for me? WTF are you even talking about? According to the cop, he thought me might have been on drugs or alcohol. That is all. Doesn't make it easy for me one way or another.

Iamtdg said:

There were over a dozen witnesses that said that Brown went for the cop's gun.

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I have seen this tweeted by a few different sources