MacMahon: Jerry Jones - Jason Garrett 'really just getting started'

Clay_Allison said:

I've been saying that he thinks he wants to run until he gets tunnel vision and starts passing, so we're describing the same thing.

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I don't think we are, because you are saying he can't wait to take back over so we can stop all this running that we're doing, and I'm saying the exact opposite.... he may have tendencies to be pass happy, and he will always be that, but with this OL, he would not be running the ball only 330 times a season. He would be running it more like when we had a decent OL in 2007-2008.

Also, he doesn't admit that he's wrong when he does that. He whines and makes excuses like "we wanted to stay aggressive" "we didn't just want to take a knee" which shows you how little he really trusts running the football in general, regardless of the line.

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What he says to the media means jack shit. He doesn't have to "admit" anything. That has no bearing on how much he trusts the running game.

Finally, Garrett has never adjusted anything in his Madden offense to his personnel. He has consistently miscast and misused WRs, refusing to change the plays to suit the routes they are best at running, he comes in with a pass-happy mindset even when we are starting Brad Johnson at QB. So suddenly he notices the offensive line is bad and his answer is to expose his QB to more hits behind that offensive line? Awesome strategy.

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Well as bad as the OL was, it was better in pass protection in run blocking, shockingly, though neither were any good. What was an "awesome strategy" was ignoring the OL for far too long... one that amazingly was rectified with first round picks in 3/4ths of the first rounds we drafted in when he took over as head coach.

And I don't put a lot of stock into the "we never adjust" argument. I think we are one of the better scoring second half teams out there, this year, actually. That means we are making good adjustments.

Because uncle Jerry took the playcalling away from him for real this time. Admittedly, it was a compromise on Jerry's part. He took away the "I don't trust Callahan" element and made Garrett pick a guy to turn over the offense to.

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So Jerry tells him he can't call plays anymore, but gives him power to pick whoever he wants to call plays? Assuming I believed that, Garrett then turns to a coordinator he trusts/has a relationship with/clearly has Garrett's back, someone who was just coming from a team who passed the ball 500 times in a year....

... and the guy does a complete 180 in terms of playcalling pass/run ratio.

If Garrett was forced to pick a playcaller, but had autonomy to select a guy who was loyal to him, and REALLY still wanted to pass at all costs, we wouldn't be seeing this outcome. Instead, he picks someone with a pass-happy streak that rivaled his own, and their collaboration results in unprecedented rushing attempts.

Garrett has had input in this very clearly, man.

It's not that I think Garrett is offended by Linehan running the ball. I just think at some point he'll want his toy back and he will revert to form and be pass happy.

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I think you only think that because you have a bit of a grudge against the guy, or can't bring yourself to admit he doesn't hate the run like you say he does.

He is, in some form or another, behind this run commitment. He is not lurking in the weeds waiting to go back to 300 rushes a season just as soon as the pressure is off him. It would be somewhere in the middle, maybe, but not like it was in 2013.

Chocolate Lab said:

I asked this on another board I used to post on before some overzealous mods took over, but why is it assumed as sound thinking that if you have a bad OL, you can't possibly even attempt to run the ball, but it's perfectly acceptable and even preferable to put your 100 miliion dollar franchise QB at risk 55 times a game?

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Because passing the ball was giving us a fighting chance and running the ball was literally resulting in loss of yards/no gain on like a quarter of the carries. You simply cannot sustain a rushing attack like we had for probably a good two seasons. If a team geared up to stop the run, it was not possible for us to run the ball.

I mean, it was just dumb, period, for us to ignore the OL. Thank goodness someone has rectified that.

It's just as dumb right now for us to have ignored the DL. I would never blame Marinelli for the state that this defense is in -- he literally cannot generate a pass rush in two-thirds of the games we play. It limits everything else he can do.

And it can't be fixed, not through playcalling, not through scheme adjustments, not through adding more DBs, nothing.

Not until we add 2-3 more high end players on the DL. And since DL is so reliant on depth (unlike the OL), we probably need some more rotation guys too.

Schmitty smells fresh meat with CL.

I expect a "I shouldn't have to keep telling you this" soon.

mschmidt64 said:

Well as bad as the OL was, it was better in pass protection in run blocking, shockingly, though neither were any good. What was an "awesome strategy" was ignoring the OL for far too long... one that amazingly was rectified with first round picks in 3/4ths of the first rounds we drafted in when he took over as head coach.

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We're back to pretending he cared about the line when he was lobbying for a TE instead of Frederick? When we fucked around picking up band aids like Livings and Bernadeau instead of picking a single good player to help build a line around?

And I don't put a lot of stock into the "we never adjust" argument. I think we are one of the better scoring second half teams out there, this year, actually. That means we are making good adjustments.

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There's a difference between in game adjustments and tweaking the plays in the offseason and during the season to do what the personnel does best. Even in 2013, the offense had a tendency to be more explosive in the second half when we were playing from behind. I'll give him that.

I'm talking about the way he's never been able to add in the capability to run more slants to bigger WRs like TRRW and TO that don't perfectly fit his "Air Coryell Starter Kit" offense.

So Jerry tells him he can't call plays anymore, but gives him power to pick whoever he wants to call plays. Assuming I believed that, Garrett then turns to a coordinator he trusts/has a relationship with/clearly has Garrett's back, someone who was just coming from a team who passed the ball 500 times in a year....

... and the guy does a complete 180 in terms of playcalling pass/run ratio.

If Garrett was forced to pick a playcaller, but had autonomy to select a guy who was loyal to him, and REALLY still wanted to pass at all costs, we wouldn't be seeing this outcome. Instead, he picks someone with a pass-happy streak that rivaled his own, and their collaboration results in unprecedented rushing attempts.

Garrett has had input in this very clearly, man.

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Have you forgotten that every time he was asked about getting an OC prior to one being forced on him he basically said "HELL NO!"? Or the fact that he inserted himself between Callahan and Romo so he could keep control of the play calls? I don't see why an arrogant coach who never takes responsibility for anything and never tries to learn from his mistakes would just suddenly offer to give up something he's clung to tenaciously since the day he was promoted. That's as big a 180 as the run-pass ratio. Jerry meddling, OTOH, is not at all out of character for him.

boozeman said:

Schmitty smells fresh meat with CL.

I expect a "I shouldn't have to keep telling you this" soon.

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[MENTION=206]Chocolate Lab[/MENTION], you should also ask him about his preference to CBs over DL.

Iamtdg said:

[MENTION=206]Chocolate Lab[/MENTION], you should also ask him about his preference to CBs over DL.

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No. He shouldn't.

Iamtdg said:

@Chocolate Lab, you should also ask him about his preference to CBs over DL.

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That is a great idea.

OMG. Who pulled the string?

Clay_Allison said:

Have you forgotten that every time he was asked about getting an OC prior to one being forced on him he basically said "HELL NO!"? Or the fact that he inserted himself between Callahan and Romo so he could keep control of the play calls? I don't see why an arrogant coach who never takes responsibility for anything and never tries to learn from his mistakes would just suddenly offer to give up something he's clung to tenaciously since the day he was promoted. That's as big a 180 as the run-pass ratio. Jerry meddling, OTOH, is not at all out of character for him.

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I think you misinterpreted what I meant.... regardless of whether Jerry "forced" him to give up playcalling, Garrett clearly got to select a playcaller HE wanted, one of "his" guys from his previous stops, and that's why he chose Linehan. He has history with him. Meanwhile, Linehan was fresh off calling 500 passing plays for the Lions.

If Garrett was that intent on forcing the pass, I'm sure his boy Linehan would be doing it (wouldnt have been out of character for Linehan given what he did just the last year). Garrett hand picked him, I'm sure he could have made sure that he hand-picked a guy who would have pass-called an adequate amount.

The point is, this isn't Jerry's OC, it's Garrett's. I'm not trying to say "Garrett gets credit for everything we're doing on offense" but at the very least, Garrett is supporting it. This isn't happening in spite of what he wants; Garrett wants us to be running this much or his boy wouldn't be doing it.

mschmidt64 said:

I think you misinterpreted what I meant.... regardless of whether Jerry "forced" him to give up playcalling, Garrett clearly got to select a playcaller HE wanted, one of "his" guys from his previous stops, and that's why he chose Linehan. He has history with him. Meanwhile, Linehan was fresh off calling 500 passing plays for the Lions.

If Garrett was that intent on forcing the pass, I'm sure his boy Linehan would be doing it (wouldnt have been out of character for Linehan given what he did just the last year). Garrett hand picked him, I'm sure he could have made sure that he hand-picked a guy who would have pass-called an adequate amount.

The point is, this isn't Jerry's OC, it's Garrett's. I'm not trying to say "Garrett gets credit for everything we're doing on offense" but at the very least, Garrett is supporting it. This isn't happening in spite of what he wants; Garrett wants us to be running this much or his boy wouldn't be doing it.

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I acknowledged that Jerry let Garrett pick his OC to make him more comfortable. I also said that when he's not calling plays, Garrett pays lip service to having a balanced offense and isn't offended by having one. I just said he didn't want an OC and if he went back to calling plays he would be pass happy again because in the heat of the moment, he just can't stay balanced. So, at this point what are we disagreeing about?

Clay_Allison said:

I acknowledged that Jerry let Garrett pick his OC to make him more comfortable. I also said that when he's not calling plays, Garrett pays lip service to having a balanced offense and isn't offended by having one. I just said he didn't want an OC and if he went back to calling plays he would be pass happy again because in the heat of the moment, he just can't stay balanced. So, at this point what are we disagreeing about?

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The part where you said that if given the chance, he'd seize back playcalling specifically to "put a stop" to running the ball so much.

mschmidt64 said:

The part where you said that if given the chance, he'd seize back playcalling specifically to "put a stop" to running the ball so much.

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Not for the express purpose of stopping the run, that would just be the net result.

He does do a good job smiling and clapping on the sideline. Thankfully we finally started building an OL and hired a competent DC and OC. Makes our walking around coach look better than when he was hands on.

Iamtdg said:

[MENTION=206]Chocolate Lab[/MENTION], you should also ask him about his preference to CBs over DL.

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So, Schmitty...

mschmidt64 said:

Because passing the ball was giving us a fighting chance and running the ball was literally resulting in loss of yards/no gain on like a quarter of the carries.

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Like last night? Except it wasn't on a quarter of the carries. It was a third.

Yet, we still kept running it. Even when we fell behind.

NoDak said:

Like last night? Except it wasn't on a quarter of the carries. It was a third.

Yet, we still kept running it. Even when we fell behind.

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Exactly. Passing too much with a bad OL just got our QB's ass kicked and led to too many INTs. You can't go into an NFL game thinking like Mike Leach.

Parcells ran the ball and got us to 8-8, not just with Quincy Carter at QB, but with Troy Hambrick at RB.

Clay_Allison said:

Exactly. Passing too much with a bad OL just got our QB's ass kicked and led to too many INTs. You can't go into an NFL game thinking like Mike Leach.

Parcells ran the ball and got us to 8-8, not just with Quincy Carter at QB, but with Troy Hambrick at RB.

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He got us to 10-6 with Carter and Hambrick. Some of his finest work

NoDak said:

Like last night? Except it wasn't on a quarter of the carries. It was a third.

Yet, we still kept running it. Even when we fell behind.

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If Demarco Murray was averaging 2.5 ypc every game we wouldn't be anywhere close to 10-4.

Yes, a lot like last night.

And actually, it was our run effectiveness in previous games that made the Eagles put 8 in the box which directly led to favorable matchups in the passing game.

Teams didn't need to put 8 in the box to hold us to 3 ypc in the past. So running into brick walls wouldn't have been an effective way to force teams out of pass coverage sets.

mschmidt64 said:

If Demarco Murray was averaging 2.5 ypc every game we wouldn't be anywhere close to 10-4.

Yes, a lot like last night.

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Were we averaging 2.5 yards a carry every game during the period you say our OLine was shitty and we had to pass more? No? Hmmm....

You certainly picked the right profession. You have a talent for misdirection and shading the truth.