Joel Osteen's church theft opens can of worms: Jaws drop as folks do the math

skidadl · Aug 26, 2015

I do agree that it is a little annoying when non-believers argue about how people should live their faith and things that they don't engage in or believe in. In this case it is pretty obvious what is right or wrong though.

If you are a bible believer then you know that our job is not really to engage in judgment of non-believers, so there's that. It kind of puts the debates into perspective for me. At least I TRY to keep that perspective.

Cotton · Aug 26, 2015

skidadl said:
I just got excited about his comment because I agreed with it wholeheartedly. I'll try to frame my comments better so it doesn't catch you off guard.

Oh, BTW, I notice that you noticed your new usertitle and changed it. :lol

skidadl · Aug 26, 2015

Iamtdg said:
Oh, BTW, I notice that you noticed your new usertitle and changed it.

I actually didn't change it. I don't know why it says Site Admin. I didn't change it to that.

E_D_Guapo · Aug 26, 2015

L.T. Fan said:
Not at all it is disgusting for all of this to be happening. Anyone can have a feeling of disgust for it believer or no. I just fail to see how a non believer can feel justified in holding religious dishonest to a higher standard in light of the fact that they don't believe in them in the first place. That just seems to be an arbitrary position and that's fine but that position came from the bible and its unseemingly that it would be used as the source to justify a position. Especially in light of one who doesn't believe it exists. Anyone can categorize based on personal preference and if religious dishonesty is part peeve so be it.

I can't say it any more plainly. It is because the people they are taking advantage of do have very deep belief and they are capitalizing on it. They are selling them false hope oftentimes at a price they can not afford. If one were to go to a mechanic and later find out they were ripped off it would probably piss them off and set them back financially. But they don't have an emotional and spiritual investment in that mechanic and that car. They may have trusted the mechanic but not remotely to the same level they trust the preacher.

Anyway...maybe someone else can do a better job of explaining it. I have said all I can say about it. :hattip

Cotton · Aug 26, 2015

E_D_Guapo said:
I suppose your whole point is that religious scumbag is no more scum than other scum. Except that you said that the mechanic who charges for a part he does not install is more of a scumbag than a preacher who takes your money claiming you will receive blessings for it. So you are actually saying the religious person is less scum. I strongly disagree. They are the same.

I rarely disagree with you, but I have to here. I don't think they are the same, I think the "preacher" is worse. There is a certain degree of trust that is inherently stronger with clergy than it is with your mechanic. There is an intimacy factor that you trust him with the guidance of your soul (to a degree) so breaking that trust makes it a more egregious moral infraction, hence making the scum level higher, IMO.

Cotton · Aug 26, 2015

skidadl said:
I actually didn't change it. I don't know why it says Site Admin. I didn't change it to that.

That's weird. When you asked me to change your email the other day, I changed your usertitle to, "I'm a fag", and I just assumed you changed it again once you logged in. I had actually forgotten about it until just now.

E_D_Guapo · Aug 26, 2015

Iamtdg said:
I rarely disagree with you, but I have to here. I don't think they are the same, I think the "preacher" is worse. There is a certain degree of trust that is inherently stronger with clergy than it is with your mechanic. There is an intimacy factor that you trust him with the guidance of your soul (to a degree) so breaking that trust makes it a more egregious moral infraction, hence making the scum level higher, IMO.

Yeah, if you read on I actually make that point. Just not very well I guess.

skidadl · Aug 26, 2015

Iamtdg said:
That's weird. When you asked me to change your email the other day, I changed your usertitle to, "I'm a fag", and I just assumed you changed it again once you logged in. I had actually forgotten about it until just now.

I didn't change it.

Probably the internet, the heavens and the money that I sent to Robert Tilton tipped the scales of justice in my favor.

Why can't you see me as wonderful when the universe is basically crying out to recognize it?!!

Cotton · Aug 26, 2015

L.T. Fan said:
Yes I am a Christain. And yes it bothers me that there are a, lot of charlatans in the Christian faith. But what equally what bothers me is that some of the posters are laying out a higher standard rule for churches and some of them do not even believe there is a metaphysical state called the Christain church so how hypocritical is it for them to set a standard to be higher for something they don't even believe exists. All I was attempting to do is to show there isn't an inherent right to be incensed or establish a standard that is above what is considered normal ethics. If it doesn't exist then there is no plain that is higher for them that should be higher.

CSB time! When I was a kid I was always fairly sheltered. I wasn't allowed to do much in fact. Mostly because he didn't want us getting into trouble which would get him in trouble. I would constantly ask him why my actions affected him so much and the actions of the other kids didn't put their parents in jeopardy. His response was always the same. "When I chose this path I knew that when I had kids I would be held to a higher standard because of the position I'm in." I never understood that until later in life. It makes more sense to me now. Preachers are held to a higher standard because of the spiritual faith that is placed in them by the members of the church, simply because they are viewed as a spiritual leader. Same thing applies here.

Cotton · Aug 26, 2015

skidadl said:
I didn't change it.

Probably the internet, the heavens and the money that I sent to Robert Tilton tipped the scales of justice in my favor.

Why can't you see me as wonderful when the universe is basically crying out to recognize it?!!

Cotton · Aug 26, 2015

E_D_Guapo said:
Yeah, if you read on I actually make that point. Just not very well I guess.

I should have known better than to think we would actually disagree.

L.T. Fan · Aug 26, 2015

Iamtdg said:
I rarely disagree with you, but I have to here. I don't think they are the same, I think the "preacher" is worse. There is a certain degree of trust that is inherently stronger with clergy than it is with your mechanic. There is an intimacy factor that you trust him with the guidance of your soul (to a degree) so breaking that trust makes it a more egregious moral infraction, hence making the scum level higher, IMO.

You think they are worse based on what?

skidadl · Aug 26, 2015

Iamtdg said:
CSB time! When I was a kid I was always fairly sheltered. I wasn't allowed to do much in fact. Mostly because he didn't want us getting into trouble which would get him in trouble. I would constantly ask him why my actions affected him so much and the actions of the other kids didn't put their parents in jeopardy. His response was always the same. "When I chose this path I knew that when I had kids I would be held to a higher standard because of the position I'm in." I never understood that until later in life. It makes more sense to me now. Preachers are held to a higher standard because of the spiritual faith that is placed in them by the members of the church, simply because they are viewed as a spiritual leader. Same thing applies here.

I can say this to you because you get it more than most. What you are saying is true, which sadly puts a tremendous amount of pressure of the family and kids of ministers. Most of these folks that sit up on their high horses and judge what they think a man of God should do have no idea what it is like to actually be in the trenches of ministry, which is no walk in the park. Not only do you have the church watching your every move but you have the non-believers just waiting for you to slip so they can point the finger and mock your failure.

It is too bad that reputation that "Christians" have made for themselves. Some justified and some not.

The average church in America is about 100 people for the most part. The salary is below poverty. Mega churches are common now but that doesn't really do justice for the what really goes on day to day with the Christian church. All of the focus is centered on what you see in the media, the folks chasing scandals and the general negativity that is growing. Like I said, lots of it is because believers got caught up in the hot topic issues instead of focusing on the gospel which is about being redeemed.

Here is what I told my kids after being in ministry for a decade, being away and then back in - live your life the best you can...I won't put any additional pressure on you. Answer to God alone and I won't expect you to please everyone. If anyone in or out of the church has a problem with that then don't worry about it. If my family is not good enough then screw whoever has a problem. I'm not gonna make their lives miserable over religious "codes" or crap.

skidadl · Aug 26, 2015

The most likely smack down in DCC history:

ED vs. LT

lets do this!!

E_D_Guapo · Aug 26, 2015

skidadl said:
The most likely smack down in DCC history:

ED vs. LT

lets do this!!

Any disagreements aside I like LT. Most of the time. :art

skidadl · Aug 26, 2015

Back in the good old days being a minister was a respected profession. Even those outside of the faith at least had respect for folks. Those days are pretty much over sadly.

Some of these clowns on TV have made a mockery out of the deal.

I wish there was a way to communicate it to non-believers without sounding like a jerkface (too late) but man it is a tough gig for the average dude trying to do the right thing. You deal with the worst judgments in and out of the church, you have to deal with broken and hurting people regularly, the job is 7 days a week, no money, pressure on the family...it is tough. Cut them some slack. Why so hostile?

My deal is different. I am a lay minister and have a business for support. I've got a lot more leeway and stuff but the guys doing it fulltime have to go through some stuff.

Cotton · Aug 26, 2015

L.T. Fan said:
You think they are worse based on what?

I believe I explained it in the post you quoted.

Cotton · Aug 26, 2015

skidadl said:
I can say this to you because you get it more than most. What you are saying is true, which sadly puts a tremendous amount of pressure of the family and kids of ministers. Most of these folks that sit up on their high horses and judge what they think a man of God should do have no idea what it is like to actually be in the trenches of ministry, which is no walk in the park. Not only do you have the church watching your every move but you have the non-believers just waiting for you to slip so they can point the finger and mock your failure.

It is too bad that reputation that "Christians" have made for themselves. Some justified and some not.

The average church in America is about 100 people for the most part. The salary is below poverty. Mega churches are common now but that doesn't really do justice for the what really goes on day to day with the Christian church. All of the focus is centered on what you see in the media, the folks chasing scandals and the general negativity that is growing. Like I said, lots of it is because believers got caught up in the hot topic issues instead of focusing on the gospel which is about being redeemed.

Here is what I told my kids after being in ministry for a decade, being away and then back in - live your life the best you can...I won't put any additional pressure on you. Answer to God alone and I won't expect you to please everyone. If anyone in or out of the church has a problem with that then don't worry about it. If my family is not good enough then screw whoever has a problem. I'm not gonna make their lives miserable over religious "codes" or crap.

Thank you for posting this. You and I have had some pretty extensive talks about this in the past. I never really appreciated what my dad went through for us as a family when I was a kid. I was angry that he was always angry. I was angry that we didn't and couldn't have the things my friends had. I was angry because I didn't get to do what my friends were doing a lot of the times. I was angry because I was being held to a standard given to me in a situation which I didn't choose to be in.

Since, I have realized that I was being a selfish little fucker. My dad was always angry because he was under a tremendous amount of stress. I realized that the reason we didn't have much is because my dad consciously made a decision to preach at small churches because he wanted to know his members on a very personal level (hence the low pay). I realized that he didn't let me do everything I wanted because he was constantly afraid that he would have to move the family yet again if we fucked up. I realized that I was put in a position I didn't choose to be in because it would eventually bring me to a position in my life where I understood certain things that would affect me being a better parent in the long term. But, most of all I realized that my dad went through hell for us, and all of the things I was mad at him about were things he did to make our lives easier, and still be able to follow the calling he felt led towards.

What it led to as far as where I ended up on the religion thing is an entirely different subject, but it did lead me to be a better person. And, for that, I'm eternally grateful to my dad and all he did for us.

Anyway, this is probably more than any of you cared to hear, but I felt I should post it.

L.T. Fan · Aug 26, 2015

Iamtdg said:
I believe I explained it in the post you quoted.

I hear what you say but it sounds more like someone that would have an anticipation and expectation of another based on an accepted source or reference to feed those expectations. If it isn't religiously founded then I am baffled. No response necessary.

skidadl · Aug 26, 2015

Iamtdg said:
Thank you for posting this. You and I have had some pretty extensive talks about this in the past. I never really appreciated what my dad went through for us as a family when I was a kid. I was angry that he was always angry. I was angry that we didn't and couldn't have the things my friends had. I was angry because I didn't get to do what my friends were doing a lot of the times. I was angry because I was being held to a standard given to me in a situation which I didn't choose to be in.

Since, I have realized that I was being a selfish little fucker. My dad was always angry because he was under a tremendous amount of stress. I realized that the reason we didn't have much is because my dad consciously made a decision to preach at small churches because he wanted to know his members on a very personal level (hence the low pay). I realized that he didn't let me do everything I wanted because he was constantly afraid that he would have to move the family yet again if we fucked up. I realized that I was put in a position I didn't choose to be in because it would eventually bring me to a position in my life where I understood certain things that would affect me being a better parent in the long term. But, most of all I realized that my dad went through hell for us, and all of the things I was mad at him about were things he did to make our lives easier, and still be able to follow the calling he felt led towards.

What it led to as far as where I ended up on the religion thing is an entirely different subject, but it did lead me to be a better person. And, for that, I'm eternally grateful to my dad and all he did for us.

Anyway, this is probably more than any of you cared to hear, but I felt I should post it.

You magnificent bastard!

Joel Osteen's church theft opens can of worms: Jaws drop as folks do the math

El Presidente'

One-armed Knife Sharpener

El Presidente'

Brand New Member

One-armed Knife Sharpener

One-armed Knife Sharpener

Brand New Member

El Presidente'

One-armed Knife Sharpener

One-armed Knife Sharpener

One-armed Knife Sharpener

I'm Easy If You Are

El Presidente'

El Presidente'

Brand New Member

El Presidente'

One-armed Knife Sharpener

One-armed Knife Sharpener

I'm Easy If You Are

El Presidente'