Abortion... yeah or nah?

Cotton

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We don't have an abortion thread, so might as well use this article to start one...

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(CNN)Angered by a new law requiring women receive medical counseling at least 24 hours before an abortion, a Kentucky lawmaker decided she was going to "strike a nerve" with her political opponents -- in particular, the men.

State Rep. Mary Lou Marzian, a Louisville Democrat, has introduced a bill that would require any man seeking a prescription for drugs to treat erectile dysfunction -- such as Viagra, Cialis and Levitra -- to "have two office visits on two different calendar days" before receiving the desired medication.

Marzian's House Bill 396 would only allow married men access to the treatments and call on them to "produce a signed and dated letter" demonstrating the consent of their current spouse. They would also have to give a sworn statement -- "hand on a Bible" -- that the prescription would only be used for sex with their legal partners.

"As a woman and a pro-choice woman and as an elected official, I am sick and tired of men -- mostly white men -- legislating personal, private medical decisions," Marzian, a retired nurse and 22-year statehouse veteran, told CNN. "It's none of their business."

Earlier this month, Republican Gov. Matt Bevin signed into law a bill beefing up the state's "informed consent" requirement for women seeking an abortion. Previously, patients could listen to a phone recording that listed the potential health risks associated with the procedure. Now, women will have to speak to a medical professional in person or via video teleconference.

Passage of the new restriction set off a social media campaign against Bevin and anti-abortion lawmakers, and while Marzian concedes her bill will have little practical effect on the new law, she said the measure was written to hit opponents where it hurts.

"When I put this out here, I thought, you know, I will strike a nerve because what is more sacred to men than their ability to have sexual intercourse?" she said with a laugh. "Let's regulate that."

"I think it illustrates how intrusive it is," Marzian continued, "how wrong it is, for any type of government, whether it's state legislature, whether it's Donald Trump, inserting themselves into personal, private medical decisions."
 

Smitty

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Abortion activists like this one are either stupid or deliberately miss the point in order to disingenuously put themselves into the rhetorical driver's seat.

No conservative I know is interested in getting between a woman and her doctor on 99.999% of any issues that arise. If it was really just about fucking with women's right to privacy, why wouldn't this contempt for women's rights bleed over into other areas of the Doctor-patient relationship?

The truth is that conservatives have no interest in telling a woman what to do with their bodies; they believe in telling women what they can't do to OTHER people's bodies.

Here's biology 101, liberals. When a woman gets pregnant, another entity with unique DNA distinguishable from the mother's is now growing inside you. Drop the farce about it being a lump of cells or simply "part of your body." You are making us all dumber every time you repeat that completely false nonsense. It's not yours. It's no more yours than the mans who put it there. Have a problem with the fact that women are the ones who get stuck carrying this burden? Yes, it's a burden, but take it up with nature. Until we find a better way, sex is still how independent humans are created, and they start as individual people inside women. These are basic facts... acknowledging them is not depriving you of rights, it's explaining how the world works and yes, as a woman you have some extra burdens placed on you by nature.

So equating it to a man getting Viagra is retarded. When conservatives start regulating the sale of condoms or birth control pills then you have an argument maybe.

Until then, have a little intellectual honesty and just fess up to the issue, which is: at what point should a fetus be granted basic human protections? At what point is that baby inside the womb (because that's what it is, dickbags, a fucking human baby) entitled to be protected from having its life ended?

If you're not the sort who goes in for religion, I probably can't convince you that life begins at conception. But you also can't make a rational argument for why a fetus that can react to stimuli, has working senses, functional nervous system, brain, organs, CAN FEEL PAIN.... Can be killed just because the mother says so. I sit here every night in bed and watch my child inside my wife react to my voice and interact with us on a daily basis, and it has been happening for months now.

So let's have the talk about where that line is, because unlimited abortion is ethically disgusting and if you advocate it, you are going to whatever hell exists after this life.
 
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Clay_Allison

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At some point along the way the difference between abortion and infanticide is arbitrary.
 

L.T. Fan

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At some point along the way the difference between abortion and infanticide is arbitrary.
I have heard a comparison to this question phrased this way. If death occurs when the heart stops beating then isn't it reasonable that it begins when the heart begins to beat. Seems like a pretty reasonable stance.

Having said that, I confess that I have very mixed positions on the abortion issues in general.
 

Genghis Khan

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I'm anti-abortion but pro choice.

I remember watching the camera of my kid in the womb really early, I want to say it was like 8 weeks, and thinking Jesus he seems alive already.

I'd never say never, but I'd like to think I'd never willing terminate a baby.

But I do believe in pro-choice within limitations.
 
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Cotton

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I have to say I have gotten even more conservative on this issue over the years. Really the only way I could back an abortion if it was going to endanger the mother to attempt to have the child.
 

dallen

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I'm anti-abortion but pro choice.

I remember watching the camera of my kid in the womb really early, I want to say it was like 8 weeks, and thinking Jesus he seems alive already.

I'd never say never, but I'd like to think I'd never willing terminate a baby.

But I do believe in pro-choice within limitations.
I couldn't see myself doing it after having children of my own, but my daughter is going to be a teenager. I'd also hate to see her life ruined by one night's bad decision, or if the unthinkable happened and she were raped I couldn't see forcing her to carry that man's baby for 9 months. But at the same time the child didn't ask to be created. It is one of those issues where I find it very easy to see both sides of the argument. I don't really think there is a right choice.
 

dallen

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The lady in the first post is an idiot though. I think we can all agree on that. If you are against the laws regarding informed consent the solution isn't to impose those laws on more people. Fight to repeal it
 

L.T. Fan

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It seems to this point that the majority sees abortion as a situational determination and I think that fits more people than what most realize. Even the self proclaimed pro life or women's rights individuals will most probably have an exception to rule of their position. That seems to be where I am.
 

Cowboysrock55

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I'm anti-abortion but pro choice.

I remember watching the camera of my kid in the womb really early, I want to say it was like 8 weeks, and thinking Jesus he seems alive already.

I'd never say never, but I'd like to think I'd never willing terminate a baby.

But I do believe in pro-choice within limitations.
I couldn't agree more, this is exactly how I feel on the subject.
 

Angrymesscan

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I'm anti-abortion but pro choice.

I remember watching the camera of my kid in the womb really early, I want to say it was like 8 weeks, and thinking Jesus he seems alive already.

I'd never say never, but I'd like to think I'd never willing terminate a baby.

But I do believe in pro-choice within limitations.
I'm anti-abortion, but don't think I should take the right of a woman to decide over her body. Is the embrio not part of her body? The more reason she shouldn't have to keep it inside if she doesn't want it, but I do think there is a window, if you didn't do anything about it the first 10 weeks I would consider it tacit agreement to keep it.
 

Cotton

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I'm anti-abortion, but don't think I should take the right of a woman to decide over her body. Is the embrio not part of her body? The more reason she shouldn't have to keep it inside if she doesn't want it, but I do think there is a window, if you didn't do anything about it the first 10 weeks I would consider it tacit agreement to keep it.
If she didn't want it in her, maybe she should have kept her legs closed. Unless you are only talking about rape cases.
 

Sheik

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Very liberal on this the older I get. I lean liberal on a lot of social issues I guess.

There are enough children that go hungry and don't get love and nurturing. If some lady wants to kill an unborn kid, that's between her and whatever God she answers to.

This issue, among others like gay marriage, should not be a political football or whatever.

But yeah, go ahead and let them do it. I don't want to pay for it, though. That's some bullshit.
 

Cotton

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Very liberal on this the older I get. I lean liberal on a lot of social issues I guess.

There are enough children that go hungry and don't get love and nurturing. If some lady wants to kill an unborn kid, that's between her and whatever God she answers to.

This issue, among others like gay marriage, should not be a political football or whatever.

But yeah, go ahead and let them do it. I don't want to pay for it, though. That's some bullshit.
Weird how we have gone the opposite directions the older we have gotten. Your opinion is your opinion, though. I don't agree with it, but I won't blast you over it.
 

Jiggyfly

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It seems to this point that the majority sees abortion as a situational determination and I think that fits more people than what most realize. Even the self proclaimed pro life or women's rights individuals will most probably have an exception to rule of their position. That seems to be where I am.
Agreed.
 

Angrymesscan

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If she didn't want it in her, maybe she should have kept her legs closed. Unless you are only talking about rape cases.
Yeah... I'm betting you never had unprotected sex... :picard

What if she did use protection, but it failed. Does she get to abort then?

What if she had holier-than-thou parents who never gave her proper sex-ed, should she pay for the sins of her parents?

Aren't you always complaining about the government getting into your personal life, now you are to tell another person how to act?

Sorry, wouldn't abort, but it's not my place to take that right away from others.
 

Cotton

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Yeah... I'm betting you never had unprotected sex... :picard

What if she did use protection, but it failed. Does she get to abort then?

What if she had holier-than-thou parents who never gave her proper sex-ed, should she pay for the sins of her parents?

Aren't you always complaining about the government getting into your personal life, now you are to tell another person how to act?

Sorry, wouldn't abort, but it's not my place to take that right away from others.
Failed protection is not that human baby's fault. Nor is being careless and not using it at all.

And, as far as the govt goes, I still think they should keep it illegal to kill someone, so yeah...
 
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