Why I Can't Say 'Love the Sinner/Hate the Sin' Anymore

EZ22

The One Who Knocks
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/micah-j-murray/why-i-cant-say-love-the-sinner-hate-the-sin-anymore_b_4521519.html


I'm done.

I can't look my gay brother in the eye anymore and say "I love the sinner but hate the sin." I can't keep drawing circles in the sand.

I thought I just needed to try harder. Maybe I needed to focus more on loving the sinner, and less on protesting the sin. But even if I was able to fully live up to that "ideal," I'd still be wrong. I'd still be viewing him as something other, something different.

Not human. Not friend. Not Christian. Not brother.

Sinner.

And despite all my theological disclaimers about how I'm just as much a sinner too, it's not the same. We don't use that phrase for everybody else. Only them. Only "the gays." That's the only place where we make "sinner" the all-encompassing identity.

Then we try to reach them, to evangelize them. We speak of "the gays" in words reminiscent of the "savages" from those old missionary stories -- foreign and different and far away, the ultimate conquest for the church to tame and colonize and save.

Maybe we accept them in our midst. But even then, it's sinners in our midst -- branded with a rainbow-colored scarlet letter. They aren't truly part of us.

Even that word "them" makes me cringe as I speak it, as if my brothers and sisters are somehow other, different from me.

It's a special sort of condescending love we've reserved for the gay community. We'll agree to love them, accept them, welcome them -- but we reserve the right to see them as different. We reserve the right to say "them" instead of "us." We embrace them with arms full of disclaimers about how all the sinners are welcome here. And yet, they're the only ones we constantly remind of their status as sinners, welcome sinners.

In all this, we turn our backs on all the gay brothers and sisters already in our church, already following Jesus. Our "us vs. them" narrative leaves little space for those who didn't choose to be gay, but did choose to follow Jesus. Using "gay" and "sinner" interchangeably, we force them away from the Table and into the shadows.

They say Jesus was a friend of sinners, but he didn't describe himself that way.

His motto wasn't "eating and drinking with prostitutes and tax collectors." Those were the labels used by the religious community, by the disapproving onlookers. What's amazing about Jesus is that when he hung out with sinners, he didn't act like they were sinners. They weren't a "project," a "mission field." They were his friends. People with names. Defined as beloved children of the Creator, not defied by their sins. Icons of God's image. His brothers and sisters.

It was the Pharisees who looked at them and scrawled "sinner" on their foreheads. It was the accusers who drew circles in the sand with themselves on the inside and "those sinners" on the outside.

Those words -- "a friend of sinners" -- were spoken with an upturned nose and a self-righteous sneer. And that's the same phrase the church has adopted to speak of our own brothers and sisters -- "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

It's the same self-righteous sneer heard in the words of those who dragged the woman caught in adultery to Jesus: "What should we do with such a woman?" They defined her by a moment. She was "one of those." Not a sister. Not a human. Just a pawn in a political debate. A sinner.

But Jesus knelt with her in the sand. Unafraid to get dirty. Unafraid to affirm her humanity. "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more."

He could have said "You're a sinner, but I love you anyways." But she knew she was a sinner. Those voices were loud and near and they held rocks above her head.

Jesus refused to let his voice join theirs. By telling her "go and sin no more," he affirmed that sin is not her deepest identity. It's not how he saw her. It's not who she was at the core of the being.

I am a sinner.

But before I was a sinner, I was created in the image of God. While sin has twisted and smudged that image, it can't erase it. Sin is so terrible that it killed Jesus. But it doesn't define me any longer. I am a new creation.

Because of Jesus, "sinner" is not how God sees me. It's not how I see myself. And it shouldn't be how I see my brothers and sisters in the church.

There is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus. To look at my gay Christian brother and say "God loves the sinner" is to set myself against Jesus and bring condemnation again to those he's already redeemed.

So I'm done.

I'm done with "Love the sinner, but hate the sin."

I won't say it anymore.

I'm done with speaking as if I'm different, better than you.

We are icons. We are children of the Creator, redeemed by Jesus. We are brothers and sisters.

And today, that's enough.
 

skidadl

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I agree with this in principal. The church has completely blown it where gays are concerned. For some reason Christians are hyper focused on gay sin. On the ther hand it is a topic that has to be defended and explained the most.

I'm on staff at a medium sized church (1200ish) and we rarely talk about gay sin. It never comes up. I've found that most modern churches really don't talk about it. It mostly gets brought up by someone demanding that we defend our position. In general, it seems like it is everyone else that is obsessed with topic. In our church we deal with gay sin the same way as any other sin. If somebody wants to talk about it we do. If not then it doesn't really come up. Sin is not really a focus. Moving closer to the things of God is.
 
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EZ22

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1200 people is a "medium" church?

Wow. That makes me sad.
 

skidadl

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1200 people is a "medium" church?

Wow. That makes me sad.
It does me too but we live in that age of mega churches.

It may be considered a large church but these days we have these giant coliseum churches. Honestly I think that in reality the average size for a church is around 120 people so I may be wrong with my classification.
 

EZ22

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It does me too but we live in that age of mega churches.

It may be considered a large church but these days we have these giant coliseum churches. Honestly I think that in reality the average size for a church is around 120 people so I may be wrong with my classification.
You know my stance on most religion (recap: I think there are Dr. Seuss stories that are more realistic). But one thing I do like is the romantic idea of a small church where everyone knows everyone. It's the kind of church I grew up in and while they did a poor job of convincing me that there is an eye in the sky, I looked forward to seeing them each week.

A church of 1200 just sounds horrible to me. To me, it's one of the things that is wrong with organized religion.

I'm not trying to bash you or your church... I'm sure it's a lovely million dollar building and the 30 or so people you actually talk to each week are lovely well dressed people.

:unsure

I kid.

Excellent article though, huh?
 

Cotton

One-armed Knife Sharpener
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You know my stance on most religion (recap: I think there are Dr. Seuss stories that are more realistic). But one thing I do like is the romantic idea of a small church where everyone knows everyone. It's the kind of church I grew up in and while they did a poor job of convincing me that there is an eye in the sky, I looked forward to seeing them each week.

A church of 1200 just sounds horrible to me. To me, it's one of the things that is wrong with organized religion.

I'm not trying to bash you or your church... I'm sure it's a lovely million dollar building and the 30 or so people you actually talk to each week are lovely well dressed people.

:unsure

I kid.

Excellent article though, huh?
That's the kind of church I was raised in as well. Very small. Hated almost all of them in most of the churches he preached at.
 

Carp

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Tell me whyyyyy can't this be love....
 

Texas Ace

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I think that's a chicken foot song.

:shrug
 

EZ22

The One Who Knocks
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So back on point... we agree that basically most of you, Jesus would be ashamed of right?

/closing thread.

:unsure
 

Carp

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Attention whores on both sides...the Duck Dynasty stuff is a joke to me. WGAS...I could care less what that guy thinks...he is not a role model to me...he does seem to be for many though based on the outrage on FB. It's a joke. Same with the young guy who went apartment shopping when his parents kicked his gay brother.out of the house. It became another meme on social media stating what happened. That seems like a private matter...why that needed to go viral I will never understand. People need to concern themselves more with their life and family and less public approval seeking.
 

Carp

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When I went to church in Vegas we were going to a church about as big as skid's. I enjoyed it and we'd always give a financial offering. I did not mind, but it became too commercial. They'd have about 15-20 minutes of advertisements on the video screen prior to the sermon...touting the pastor's or his wife's new book, church related paraphernalia, etc. Then if they had a special guest they'd ask for a love offering for them and advertise the book they wrote and whatnot. It turned me off on churches.
 

2233boys

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I agree entirely with the letter. To many Christians focus on the VA stand by he already posted here "love the sinner hate the sin". It allows them to separate themselves from others they look down on. All the while their lives have just as much sin in them but they don't say the same things about the sin in their own lives.
 

Smitty

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Notice that in the article that Jesus also, when he knelt in the sand with the woman, he said "go and sin no more."

Just saying there has to be a mechanism in place for recognizing that there is behavior that is sinful, and advising people to stop behaving that way.

Jesus are with prostitutes and befriended them, while also recognizing that such behavior was sinful. I think the issue is that homosexual people don't want to be told that they are acting sinfully.

If we're gonna reconcile this with Jesus, it's probably that, while it was sinful to be a prostitute, he didn't differentiate between those people and rich people who sinned by not caring for the poor, or people who lie to their spouses, etc. In our society, homosexuality carries a much bigger stigma than those infractions.
 
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skidadl

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You know my stance on most religion (recap: I think there are Dr. Seuss stories that are more realistic). But one thing I do like is the romantic idea of a small church where everyone knows everyone. It's the kind of church I grew up in and while they did a poor job of convincing me that there is an eye in the sky, I looked forward to seeing them each week.

A church of 1200 just sounds horrible to me. To me, it's one of the things that is wrong with organized religion.

I'm not trying to bash you or your church... I'm sure it's a lovely million dollar building and the 30 or so people you actually talk to each week are lovely well dressed people.

:unsure

I kid.

Excellent article though, huh?
Oh I get it. I've got more to say about this than I have time to type and more than you would care to take the time to read.

I read a pretty interesting article from Barna about this topic. The average church in America is about 90 folks. Lots of people prefer the intimate setting of a really small church while others prefer a bigger church that has more established and accessible programs for kids. There are other factors if you care to read it: https://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/126-small-churches-struggle-to-grow-because-of-the-people-they-attract#.UsnE4xB5mSM

Generally speaking, I loathe the commercialization of church. It really REALLY bothers me. Much like what carp was talking about it takes money to keep the machine going. I prefer the missional church that encouraged its memebrs to GO out and reach people in the common areas of life. Places like work, business, school and sports. Just basically living life as a follower and ministering where situations arise.

Nowadays we build big beautiful buildings with trendy looking pastors with coffee shops and all of the conveniences for everyone to enjoy. You create a consumer driven church where people come and expect it served up a certain way. If you don't meet their expectations they pack up and go to another place. Those big buildings need paid for so they need more people to come. It becomes a cycle that puts pressure on pastors and leaders to keep pumping money through and making everyone happy. It takes away from the purity of the gospel.

A larger church can work. We have about 400 per service on Sundays with 2 services. Probably about 1200 total folks there...of course everyone doesn't participate every Sunday. I'd say that we have a core group of about 30-40 leaders, many volunteers, 250 of the solid core group, another 400 regulars and then the fringe that rotates and is the occassional attendee.

We have groups that we gather in on a weekly basis. Basically we have small group leaders and smaller groups that we do weekly with bible studies and activities. People who volunteer also are tight in their various groups. People who work with the youth typically hang in the group that they volunteer in. Children's area the same, prayer groups...stuff like that. It is pretty easy to spend time with folks in a smaller setting in my church because the church is set up to combat what you are talking about.
 

skidadl

El Presidente'
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When I went to church in Vegas we were going to a church about as big as skid's. I enjoyed it and we'd always give a financial offering. I did not mind, but it became too commercial. They'd have about 15-20 minutes of advertisements on the video screen prior to the sermon...touting the pastor's or his wife's new book, church related paraphernalia, etc. Then if they had a special guest they'd ask for a love offering for them and advertise the book they wrote and whatnot. It turned me off on churches.
~gag~

I hear you bro. I love to give...I'm a giver. I just don't like being manipulated week in and week out.

Giving is essential and proper for a healthy functioning church.

It is pretty much like here at the DCC. This is a volunteer organization too. It takes money to run the joint. In order to keep it running you have to ask for money occasionally. If we really wanted to upgrade servers and get some cool stuff then we need more people that are here to give, the givers to up their giving or get more people that give. It is not an evil concept to have a cool placeto go to.
 
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