9 dead in ‘hate crime’ shooting at historic African American church in Charleston

[L.T. Fan]

My line of thinking on the Confederate Flag is pretty much in line with Townsend's.

I've always maintained that even if the original intent of the Confederate Flag wasn't necessarily to embrace white supremacy and hatred towards minorities, that's pretty much what it's morphed into over the years. Just like with the Swastika, as was pointed out.

To the general public the Confederate Flag represents the ideals of white supremacy, hatred, segregation, etc. And when you see a Confederate Flag on a vehicle or flying in someone's yard.....it's a virtual lock that the owner of said vehicle/property is white. I've yet to come across a single person of color who embraces the confederate flag. Maybe there are some out there but I've yet to see one. And believe it's because the flag is something that is known more for divisiveness and hate because certain groups decided to embrace it and make it one of their calling cards. Again, just like with the Swastika.

As an aside, I expect there will be some talk in the near future about Mississippi redoing their state flag since this is one of the hot button issues of the week.

Thats probably an accurate observation. My thoughts were more directed toward the time frame of hlstory when the nation was divided under two flags. It was a division of many ideals including slavery but not soley about slavery. The majority of the people from the Confereracy who fought in the war were poor common folks who probably didn't own much of anything but still were determined to defend the principals of what the region was opposed to.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Maybe there are some out there but I've yet to see one.

Someone posted a couple examples of just this earlier in this thread.

I do agree with you to an extent though. I mean you'd never see my flying the flag because the automatic assumption everyone would make is that I'm racist. That does tend to be the general perception of the flag and it's why you'll never see me with anything containing it. Of course I have no Southern pride or connection to a Southern states so there really isn't a reason for me to display such a flag.

I just hate the idea of a lunatic fringe group of people dictating what everyone else can and can't do.

 

[Jiggyfly]

No, like I said, maybe you need to look up the definition of observance. Which doesn't contain the word celebrate anywhere.

the action of watching or noticing something.

I never used observance why do I need to look it up?

L.T. had a issue with me using celebrate.

I know what he meant but it had no bearing on my initial statement which he responded to.

I really am missing your point.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

I never used observance why do I need to look it up?

L.T. had a issue with me using celebrate.

That's because he used the term observance which you somehow decided was the same thing as celebrating. If you think him saying observing the flag is the same as celebrating the flag then I think you need to look up the definition of observance because you clearly don't know what it is.

 

[L.T. Fan]

I never used observance why do I need to look it up?

L.T. had a issue with me using celebrate.

I know what he meant but it had no bearing on my initial statement which he responded to.

I really am missing your point.

The reason I had an issue was because I used the term observance which was in the context of the post to mean a view of history. It's my post and i know what i meant but you insisted on using the term celebrate and you still are. Just accept the fact that I know what I mean and I dont need you to be munipulating my use of the english language.

 

[BipolarFuk]

Damn, I'm good.

 

[Jiggyfly]

That's because he used the term observance which you somehow decided was the same thing as celebrating. If you think him saying observing the flag is the same as celebrating the flag then I think you need to look up the definition of observance because you clearly don't know what it is.

I said South Carolina was having the flag up was celebrating the conferderacy. when you celebrate something you are observing it by definition.

I don't no why you keep saying I don't know what observing mean since I never said the mean the same thing.

But I guess you think South Carolina is not celegrating anything by having the flag up.

This is why the flag is currently being flown as a tribute are we now going to debate the meaning of tribute?

Back in 2000, civil rights activists successfully lobbied to have a much larger Confederate flag removed from the Capitol dome. But there was a compromise. The South Carolina Heritage Act decreed that just about all other tributes to Confederate history would be virtually untouchable. The only way to change anything of that nature -- including the smaller flag that was erected on the State House lawn -- would be to gain the endorsement of two-thirds of lawmakers.

 

[Jiggyfly]

The reason I had an issue was because I used the term observance which was in the context of the post to mean a view of history. It's my post and i know what i meant but you insisted on using the term celebrate and you still are. Just accept the fact that I know what I mean and I dont need you to be munipulating my use of the english language.

You called me a dumb ass for using celebrate which I properly used how in the hell are you some kind of victim in this?

 

[L.T. Fan]

You called me a dumb ass for using celebrate which I properly used how in the hell are you some kind of victim in this?

I called you a dumb ass because you insist on thinking you know more than me what I meant. And you are still insisting you do so I am apparently correct. OBSERVE. To look or view.

 

[Smitty]

And what was the Souths initial problem leading to succession?

Lincoln putting restrictions on Slavery.

... no, wrong again.

 

[Smitty]

I've always maintained that even if the original intent of the Confederate Flag wasn't necessarily to embrace white supremacy and hatred towards minorities, that's pretty much what it's morphed into over the years. Just like with the Swastika, as was pointed out.

Man, I just do not agree. You see all kinds of people driving around the south with it plastered on their cars or on their T-shirts.

I find it hard to believe they are all white supremacists, or even most of them. They're mostly just harmless hillbillies who are espousing their own form of under-educated separatism, but at it's root, I don't think they are much in the way of racists at all.

To me that is part of what makes America great, that it has local flavors like that which aren't all PC. Kinda like New Yorkers being assholes.

 

[Jiggyfly]

I called you a dumb ass because you insist on thinking you know more than me what I meant. And you are still insisting you do so I am apparently correct. OBSERVE. To look or view.

Sorry your feelings were hurt.

 

[townsend]

Man, I just do not agree. You see all kinds of people driving around the south with it plastered on their cars or on their T-shirts.

I find it hard to believe they are all white supremacists, or even most of them. They're mostly just harmless hillbillies who are espousing their own form of under-educated separatism, but at it's root, I don't think they are much in the way of racists at all.

To me that is part of what makes America great, that it has local flavors like that which aren't all PC. Kinda like New Yorkers being assholes.

I think that personal experience might play a part in it. Even in TX I haven't met anyone who would demonstrate the stars and bars who also didn't like to aspouse the merits of Jim Crow.

That being said. South Carolina raised the confederate flag for the first time in remembrance of the "confederate war" at a function blacks were not allowed to attend. They opposed more than just civil rights, but integration. In that state it is part of a shameful heritage of a people clinging to a bygone era of oppression and exclusion. There is no world in which the symbol that opposed the federally mandated integration could not be seen as offensive.

 

[Cotton]

Jiggyfly's sample final exam for his students:

Question 1: What kind of tree was it that George Washington chopped down?
Question 2: How old was Davy Crockett when he first killed him a bear?
Bonus Question: Which state was real-life figure Paul Bunyon from?

 

[Cotton]

My line of thinking on the Confederate Flag is pretty much in line with Townsend's.

I've always maintained that even if the original intent of the Confederate Flag wasn't necessarily to embrace white supremacy and hatred towards minorities, that's pretty much what it's morphed into over the years. Just like with the Swastika, as was pointed out.

To the general public the Confederate Flag represents the ideals of white supremacy, hatred, segregation, etc. And when you see a Confederate Flag on a vehicle or flying in someone's yard.....it's a virtual lock that the owner of said vehicle/property is white. I've yet to come across a single person of color who embraces the confederate flag. Maybe there are some out there but I've yet to see one. And believe it's because the flag is something that is known more for divisiveness and hate because certain groups decided to embrace it and make it one of their calling cards. Again, just like with the Swastika.

As an aside, I expect there will be some talk in the near future about Mississippi redoing their state flag since this is one of the hot button issues of the week.

I haven't run across a single white person (in Texas) that embraces it and make it one of their calling cards. Maybe I run in the wrong circles. But... I think it is a piece of our history and should be treated as such. No one should be able to tell the Mexicans they can't fly their flag outside their homes here in Texas, even though Santa Anna pretty much executed every Texan in his path. I think some are too focused on race and not enough on just overall horribleness. Who gives a shit what your skin color is? That's what has gotten us to where we are. Reactionary crap like Ferguson and Rodney King, and what led up to it, are what has our country still talking race instead of prospective (real) race equality. It pisses me off that we still live in a world where skin color is even still an issue. ON BOTH FUCKING SIDES. Stop talking about it. It's not helping any of us.

(btw, this wasn't meant for you in particular, big... just venting)

 

[Cotton]

BTW, let me be clear, I think they should take the flag down. It's not about that for me. It's a bigger issue that is killing our nation right now. Stop the damn racial divide with petty shit like this. All we are doing is furthering our divide by making everything about petty shit like a flag. Take the fucking flag down. It's not helping. And, stop talking about the flag and whatever your thoughts on it are. It's not fucking helping.

 

[Cotton]

For those who are in favor of allowing the Confederate flag to persist, what censored things relating to people of color do you agree with being censored?

The better question is, what things are censored relating to "people of color"?

 

[Cotton]

or, asking in another way, how high does the confederate flag rank on the list of offensive things? Higher or lower than the name 'Redskins', for example.

Pedantic. Who is to say what is offensive and what is not? It's a dumb argument to have, really, and you can refer to my previous posts as to why I feel that way.

 

[Clay_Allison]

Once again without speaking on whether it should be removed, opposition to the Civil Rights movement can still be seen as opposition to the Federal government.

Opposition to the Civil Rights Act could be. Opposition to the civil rights movement is about wanting to keep Jim Crow laws in place.

 

[Cotton]

I'm not looking up the word 'pedantic'. Haha.

Im not trying to have an argument, either. I'm simply asking people their opinions and I'm curious because it's so various to individuals.

whereas I think we can agree that 'separate but equal' and illegal interracial marriages are bad, on the other hand, more sensitive people think the word 'black' people or 'orientals' is horrifically offensive. I'm curious to read what others think how high up on the list is the confederate flag.

There are illegal interracial marriages?