9 dead in ‘hate crime’ shooting at historic African American church in Charleston

[Smitty]

America was not founded on it's ability to have and keep slaves which was the driving force of the creation of the conferderacy.

That is what makes your argument null.

Yeah, but you are wrong.

The confederacy wasn't founded on the right to own and keep slaves any more than the original American government was. Unless you, like an idiot, are taking the position that the Southern States wouldn't have resisted British attempts to liberate their slaves at that time as well.

The American colonies, who all had legal slavery at the time of the Revolution, didn't want the British empire telling them what to do anymore.

The Confederacy faced the exact same set of circumstances 75 years later. The abolition of slavery wasn't even on the table at the time as Lincoln didn't even want to free the slaves, only limit it's expansion, so you are talking right out your ass when you say it's because they wanted to keep their slaves, since the North would have signed right off on keeping slavery legal if that was the only issue, and no civil war ever would have occurred.

They went to war for a huge multitude of reasons; the issue of abolition of slavery was no where near the primary one.

 

[Jiggyfly]

They went to war for a huge multitude of reasons; the issue of abolition of slavery was nowhere near the primary one.

The owning of slaves was the reason 1A what you are peddling is revisionist history.

What makes your understanding of history more legit than the most scholars?

 

[Smitty]

The owning of slaves was the reason 1A

No, it fucking wasn't.

Once again, Lincoln would have allowed the entire South to keep their slaves, no questions asked. A Civil War happened anyway.

what you are peddling is revisionist history.

No, what you are peddling is ignorance, stupidity, and the image of someone who talks far more than their knowledge base supports.

What makes your understanding of history more legit than the most scholars?

Scholars do not say the Civil War was about keeping slaves.

You are reciting psuedo-history on the scale of Columbus discovering America and Europe thinking the world was flat at the time.

Slavery was merely one factor in the causes of the civil war. Not nearly enough to be considered a primary cause, because you could have removed the abolition of slavery from the issue list (which factually happened) and the Civil War still would have (did) occur.

Therefore, it is not significantly dissimilar to the American Revolution in terms of what the people doing the fighting at the time thought about what they were fighting for.

 

[Jiggyfly]

No, it fucking wasn't.

Once again, Lincoln would have allowed the entire South to keep their slaves, no questions asked. A Civil War happened anyway.



No, what you are peddling is ignorance, stupidity, and the image of someone who talks far more than their knowledge base supports.



Scholars do not say the Civil War was about keeping slaves.

You are reciting psuedo-history on the scale of Columbus discovering America and Europe thinking the world was flat at the time.

I bet you have bever even read the fucking articles of the conferderate constitution, the major changes made were about guess what?

Slavery.

There are several major differences in the two constitutions in the area concerning slavery.

Whereas the original U.S. Constitution did not use the word slavery or the term "Negro Slaves",[27] but "Person held to Service or Labour"[28] which included whites in indentured servitude, the Confederate Constitution addresses the legality of slavery directly and by name.

Though Article I Section 9(1) of both constitutions are quite similar in banning the importation of slaves from foreign nations the Confederate Constitution permits the CSA to import slaves from the United States and specifies Africans as the subject. The importation of slaves into the United States, including the South, had already been illegal since 1808.[29]

Article I Section 9(1)
The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country, other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same.[14]

While the U.S. Constitution reads
The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.[30]

The Confederate Constitution then adds a clause that the CSA Congress has the power to prohibit the importation of slaves from any state that is a non-Confederate State.

Article I Section 9(2)
Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy.[14]
While the U.S. Constitution has a clause that states "No bill of attainder or ex post facto law shall be passed"[30] the Confederate Constitution adds a phrase to protect slavery.

Do you see the difference and motivations now?

 

[Smitty]

Do you see the difference and motivations now?

No... I see two slave owning populations who were allowed to keep owning their slaves, and it was made abundantly clear to them that they would be allowed to keep their slaves, but decided to rebel anyway because of about ten other things that pissed them off -- mostly taxes and representation, in both cases -- and therefore they were fighting for those ten other things and not slavery.

And thats what most people who know what they are talking about see.

The people who got their information from a fifth grade social studies book see it your way.

 

[Jiggyfly]

No... I see two slave owning populations who were allowed to keep owning their slaves, and it was made abundantly clear to them that they would be allowed to keep their slaves, but decided to rebel anyway because of about ten other things that pissed them off -- mostly taxes and representation, in both cases -- and therefore they were fighting for those ten other things.

And thats what most people who know what they are talking about see.

The people who got their information from a fifth grade social studies book see it your way.

I have certification as a history teacher and I am currently completing my masters in history so get that 5th grade crap out of here.

I am not surprised that you glossed over the fact the confederacy was just fine with the American constitution outside of that whole slavery thing.

 

[Smitty]

I have certification as a history teacher and I am currently completing my masters in history so get that 5th grade crap out of here.

Jesus.

No wonder our nation is fucked.

I am not surprised that you glossed over the fact the confederacy was just fine with the American constitution outside of that whole slavery thing.

I'm not surprised you glossed over the fact that the US Constitution explicitly allowed slavery.

Or the fact that the South wasn't fighting over slaves since Lincoln said, in writing, he didn't want to free them, and yet they rebelled anyway.

 

[NoDak]

Jesus.

No wonder our nation is fucked.

Ayuh.

 

[Rev]

Jesus.

No wonder our nation is fucked.



I'm not surprised you glossed over the fact that the US Constitution explicitly allowed slavery.

Or the fact that the South wasn't fighting over slaves since Lincoln said, in writing, he didn't want to free them, and yet they rebelled anyway.

FIFY

 

[Jiggyfly]

Jesus.

No wonder our nation is fucked.



I'm not surprised you glossed over the fact that the US Constitution explicitly allowed slavery.

I have never disputed that asshole.

You were the one coming in here with that bullshit of slavery being some kind of footnote to the civil war.

Don't you have to get your greys ready for some civil war reenactment somewhere.

 

[Smitty]

Jiggyfly's sample final exam for his students:

Question 1: What kind of tree was it that George Washington chopped down?
Question 2: How old was Davy Crockett when he first killed him a bear?
Bonus Question: Which state was real-life figure Paul Bunyon from?

 

[Rev]

I shouldn't but I can't help it.


. .

 

[Jiggyfly]

If you thought that was somehow funny yes you should.

 

[Smitty]

I have never disputed that asshole.

You were the one coming in here with that bullshit of slavery being some kind of footnote to the civil war.

I didn't say it was a footnote. It was not one of the primary causes, in the sense that, the people fighting the civil war did not see it as a fight to keep slavery legal.

How do we know this?

Because Abraham fucking Lincoln said "You can keep your slaves. Just don't secede." They seceded anyway, because they were pissed about taxes and representation -- just like the original 13 colonies.

Therefore, it is not accurate to say that the Confederacy was a symbol of racism; for the vast majority of people fighting in it, they did not even own slaves, or worked beside them in the fields. For them, they viewed THEMSELVES as the oppressed people just like the original colonies were.

To deny this, is basically to be clueless about American history.

 

[Jiggyfly]

I didn't say it was a footnote. It was not one of the primary causes, in the sense that, the people fighting the civil war did not see it as a fight to keep slavery legal.

How do we know this?

Because Abraham fucking Lincoln said "You can keep your slaves. Just don't secede." They seceded anyway, because they were pissed about taxes and representation -- just like the original 13 colonies.

Therefore, it is not accurate to say that the Confederacy was a symbol of racism; for the vast majority of people fighting in it, they did not even own slaves, or worked beside them in the fields. For them, they viewed THEMSELVES as the oppressed people just like the original colonies were.

To deny this, is basically to be clueless about American history.

And what was the Souths initial problem leading to succession?

Lincoln putting restrictions on Slavery.

But I guess you going to dispute that as well.

I know this is the point of the word avalanche from you so it's time to bow out on this worthless back and forth with you.

 

[boozeman]

Jiggyfly's sample final exam for his students:

Question 1: What kind of tree was it that George Washington chopped down?
Question 2: How old was Davy Crockett when he first killed him a bear?
Bonus Question: Which state was real-life figure Paul Bunyon from?

It is Bunyan.

 

[Jiggyfly]

It is Bunyan.

 

[Jiggyfly]

Oh and by the way anybody that thinks teachers just make up curriculum these days have no clue of the current education system.

 

[1bigfan13]

My line of thinking on the Confederate Flag is pretty much in line with Townsend's.

I've always maintained that even if the original intent of the Confederate Flag wasn't necessarily to embrace white supremacy and hatred towards minorities, that's pretty much what it's morphed into over the years. Just like with the Swastika, as was pointed out.

To the general public the Confederate Flag represents the ideals of white supremacy, hatred, segregation, etc. And when you see a Confederate Flag on a vehicle or flying in someone's yard.....it's a virtual lock that the owner of said vehicle/property is white. I've yet to come across a single person of color who embraces the confederate flag. Maybe there are some out there but I've yet to see one. And believe it's because the flag is something that is known more for divisiveness and hate because certain groups decided to embrace it and make it one of their calling cards. Again, just like with the Swastika.

As an aside, I expect there will be some talk in the near future about Mississippi redoing their state flag since this is one of the hot button issues of the week.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Is it not true putting up a flag is not celebrating something using the definition I gave?

No, like I said, maybe you need to look up the definition of observance. Which doesn't contain the word celebrate anywhere.

the action of watching or noticing something.