9 dead in ‘hate crime’ shooting at historic African American church in Charleston

[Simpleton]

The main issue to me seems that in more Northern (liberal?) states, it is taught in schools that the Civil War was about slavery, whereas in more Southern (conservative?) states it is taught that it was about state rights, that's why by and large you see such a split on the issue. This doesn't change the fact though that the flag is most certainly a source of pride to racists due to the fact that slavery was an accepted institution in the Confederacy.

Not everybody that takes pride in the flag is a racist, but there are certainly a great number of racists who take pride in the flag for racist reasons.

 

[skidadl]

The main issue to me seems that in more Northern (liberal?) states, it is taught in schools that the Civil War was about slavery, whereas in more Southern (conservative?) states it is taught that it was about state rights, that's why by and large you see such a split on the issue. This doesn't change the fact though that the flag is most certainly a source of pride to racists due to the fact that slavery was an accepted institution in the Confederacy.

Not everybody that takes pride in the flag is a racist, but there are certainly a great number of racists who take pride in the flag for racist reasons.

Pretty much.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Did you not read the definition?

History observance (your words) is a celebration.

Nice try but you put your foot in it here, just smile and leave the room awkwardly.

And nice to know there will be little respect in our discussions anymore.

Um, I think you have it backwards. The definition of observance is what you should have been looking for. There are many ways to observe that aren't celebrations.

 

[BipolarFuk]

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley and Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham plan to call for the removal of the Confederate battle flag from the grounds of the state Capitol, sources told NBC News on Monday.

 

[skidadl]

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley and Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham plan to call for the removal of the Confederate battle flag from the grounds of the state Capitol, sources told NBC News on Monday.

I think it is time to make that move.

 

[Jiggyfly]

Um, I think you have it backwards. The definition of observance is what you should have been looking for. There are many ways to observe that aren't celebrations.

He is the one who brought up observance and that was clearly in line with the proper definition of celebrated.

v. cel·e·brat·ed, cel·e·brat·ing, cel·e·brates
v.tr.
1. To observe (a day or event) with ceremonies of respect, festivity, or rejoicing. See Synonyms at observe.

 

[1bigfan13]

Regardless of the arguments of recognizing/remembering heritage and history it's still an idiotic idea to fly that flag over a state capitol. You want to fly it in your yard or out front of your private business....fine. But a flag of that nature doesn't belong flying over a state capitol.

It's akin to Obama flying a Black Panther flag over the White House. People defending SC's right to fly a confederate flag would lose their F'ing mind if Obama did that.

And I don't give SC Governor Nikki Haley an ounce of credit for deciding to remove the flag today. This move was made strictly as a PR move to ingratiate herself to SC citizens. If she really felt strongly about moving on from what that flag stood for and getting with the 21st century she would have raised the issue and pressed to remove the flag earlier. Hell, in the past she's argued against removing the flag....but now it's time? Whatever. She's a phony but at least the flag will be removed.

 

[L.T. Fan]

He is the one who brought up observance and that was clearly in line with the proper definition of celebrated.

Yes I brought up observance but I didn't bring it up in the context of celebration. You chose to do that. Observance means several things and you arbitrarily choice to tie it to celebration. That is only one of several uses of the term. Again you picked the word celebrate as the definer not me. Can you get that through your head?

 

[Cowboysrock55]

He is the one who brought up observance and that was clearly in line with the proper definition of celebrated.

Yeah, and if Celebrate was the definition of observance you would have a point. You're getting it backwards. The definition of Celebrate also has many other words in it but I hope every time someone mentions those words you don't think it's a discussion about celebration.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Flying the Confederate flag as a symbol of state's rights?

Right to do what? Keep people in fucking chains?

Actually the idea at the time was a states rights not to have the Federal Government dictate to them their laws. Which slavery was an example of.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

It's akin to Obama flying a Black Panther flag over the White House. People defending SC's right to fly a confederate flag would lose their F'ing mind if Obama did that.

I think that's a really bad comparison. One flag actually has a direct correlation to the government. The other was something created by a private group and entity.

 

[Jiggyfly]

Yes I brought up observance but I didn't bring it up in the context of celebration. You chose to do that. Observance means several things and you arbitrarily choice to tie it to celebration. That is only one of several uses of the term. Again you picked the word celebrate as the definer not me. Can you get that through your head?

You brought up observance I did not tie celebration to anything, you responded to me not thr other wat around.

I used celebrate in the proper context and gave you proof of that.

Anytime you put up a flag you are celebrating something that's just a fact.

What do I need to get through my head, the fact that you are continuing to make yourself look foolish because obviously you had no idea how the word celebrate could be used?

But please continue, you obviously believe you are making some kind of point.

 

[Jiggyfly]

I think that's a really bad comparison. One flag actually has a direct correlation to the government. The other was something created by a private group and entity.

It's not that far off, there is currently no confederate government and it could be argued that that government never had a legitimate standing.

 

[Jiggyfly]

Yeah, and if Celebrate was the definition of observance you would have a point. You're getting it backwards. The definition of Celebrate also has many other words in it but I hope every time someone mentions those words you don't think it's a discussion about celebration.

What.

I used celebrate in conjunction to how it's currently being used, I gave you the definition of why.

There is no debate on what observance means that was L.T. throwing shit at the wall.

Is it not true putting up a flag is not celebrating something using the definition I gave?

 

[Smitty]

Sorry but this is just false

No, it is not false.

the American flag was not flown under the particular circumstance of wanting the right to own slaves, that's reaching even for you.

Incorrect, you are ignorant. The slaves in the American colonies at the time of the American Revolution actually believed at the time that the British government was more likely to free them than the American colonies if they assisted the British in quelling the revolution. The Constitution of the United States had provisions that legalized slavery explicitly, and the "3/5ths clause" was negotiated by James Madison himself.

Abolition in the Northern States was not passed until AFTER the Revolutionary war, up until as late as 1840.

Not a single one of the colonies had anti-slavery majorities at the time of the Revolution. Ergo, the Revolutionary War can indisputably be classified as a slave-owning population fighting against centralized government.

Yes there were slave owners but there were also leaders who did not belive in slave ownership.
http://americanfounding.blogspot.com/2010/08/alexader-stephens-vs-thomas-jefferson.html

Can any of this be said of the confederacy founders?

Yes, the exact same thing can be said. There were southern leaders who were for the abolition of slavery but also hated the idea of the North telling the South what to do; Robert E Lee was one of them. He -- like Thomas Jefferson in your quote there -- both owned slaves, but both had ideas that it should end ASAP.

This was a really weak take there is a huge difference between what the motivations of the founding fathers and the arguments of the confederacy which was motivated by slave ownership.

No, there is not. You just think there was because you were fed the line about the Civil War being about slavery and so you think anyone who is pro South is also pro slavery. But you are incorrect.

 

[Smitty]

I think in the particular case of SC, since they adopted the confederate flag not to oppose the federal government but to oppose the civil rights movement, their particular decision to fly it is definitely a gesture of racism. If for no other reason than that, that state should remove it.

Once again without speaking on whether it should be removed, opposition to the Civil Rights movement can still be seen as opposition to the Federal government.

 

[boozeman]

And I don't give SC Governor Nikki Haley an ounce of credit for deciding to remove the flag today. This move was made strictly as a PR move to ingratiate herself to SC citizens. If she really felt strongly about moving on from what that flag stood for and getting with the 21st century she would have raised the issue and pressed to remove the flag earlier. Hell, in the past she's argued against removing the flag....but now it's time? Whatever. She's a phony but at least the flag will be removed.

A lot of this outcry over the flag is ingratiating nonsense. It's been flying for years.

But in our new microwave social media kneejerk society, it's now an issue.

It should come down. But the fact that it is now is simple pandering.

 

[Smitty]

Regardless of the arguments of recognizing/remembering heritage and history it's still an idiotic idea to fly that flag over a state capitol. You want to fly it in your yard or out front of your private business....fine. But a flag of that nature doesn't belong flying over a state capitol.

It's akin to Obama flying a Black Panther flag over the White House. People defending SC's right to fly a confederate flag would lose their F'ing mind if Obama did that.

A fair argument.

 

[Jiggyfly]

No, it is not false.



Incorrect, you are ignorant. The slaves in the American colonies at the time of the American Revolution actually believed at the time that the British government was more likely to free them than the American colonies if they assisted the British in quelling the revolution. The Constitution of the United States had provisions that legalized slavery explicitly, and the "3/5ths clause" was negotiated by James Madison himself.

Abolition in the Northern States was not passed until AFTER the Revolutionary war, up until as late as 1840.



Yes, the exact same thing can be said. There were southern leaders who were for the abolition of slavery but also hated the idea of the North telling the South what to do; Robert E Lee was one of them.



No, there is not. You just think there was because you were fed the line about the Civil War being about slavery and so you think anyone who is pro South is also pro slavery. But you are incorrect.

America was not founded on it's ability to have and keep slaves which was the driving force of the creation of the conferderacy.

That is what makes your argument null.

If you want to cling to the idea that slavery was some afterthought of why the civil was fought, well have fun with that.

 

[Jiggyfly]

A lot of this outcry over the flag is ingratiating nonsense. It's been flying for years.

But in our new microwave social media kneejerk society, it's now an issue.

It should come down. But the fact that it is now is simple pandering.

I agree it is pandering, but that's where we are today.

I am surprised at the number of people lining up to get in front of this now.