9 dead in ‘hate crime’ shooting at historic African American church in Charleston

[Cotton]

 

[BipolarFuk]

 

[townsend]

I'm of two minds on this. I don't think South Carolina's racism really much to do with that little fuck weed. He's one of thousands of fucking morons who are going to come to a decision to kill because they're so God damned worthless the only way they can make an impact on the world is by creating a tragedy.

That being said. Yeah, take it down. The thing was adopted in the 60s as a steadfast and deliberate opposition to civil rights. Make this tragedy mean something and burn that disgracful piece of cloth.

 

[boozeman]

http://www.inquisitr.com/2188029/charleston-s-c-shooting-was-fbi-cia-false-flag-attack-after-obama-tried-to-nuke-charleston-conspiracy-theory/

Tryin' to take our guns!

 

[Cowboysrock55]

That being said. Yeah, take it down. The thing was adopted in the 60s as a steadfast and deliberate opposition to civil rights. Make this tragedy mean something and burn that disgracful piece of cloth.

There is something about it that bothers me. Like a racist group can chose any symbol they want to represent their agenda and then suddenly everyone else has to eliminate it from their lives. I mean what does burning the flag or taking it down really accomplish? Does someone really think that the flag hanging somehow motivated this guy to commit mass murder. Ultimately I don't care. I have no connection to the flag personally and I'm not a racist.

 

[L.T. Fan]

There is something about it that bothers me. Like a racist group can chose any symbol they want to represent their agenda and then suddenly everyone else has to eliminate it from their lives. I mean what does burning the flag or taking it down really accomplish? Does someone really think that the flag hanging somehow motivated this guy to commit mass murder. Ultimately I don't care. I have no connection to the flag personally and I'm not a racist.

I view the conferdeate flag as something that represents part of the history of this country. Even if you appose what it stands for or what you perceive it stands for it is still part of the country. Where do you stop with an eradication process and who determines what will be eradicated?

 

[peplaw06]

There is something about it that bothers me. Like a racist group can chose any symbol they want to represent their agenda and then suddenly everyone else has to eliminate it from their lives. I mean what does burning the flag or taking it down really accomplish? Does someone really think that the flag hanging somehow motivated this guy to commit mass murder. Ultimately I don't care. I have no connection to the flag personally and I'm not a racist.

Well, it's not exactly like the flag was completely disassociated from racist policies. I understand having a feeling for the history of it, but it's not like they picked just a random object as their symbol. Whether it's the entire history of the flag or not, it's a pretty significant symbol of the fight for slavery.

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Well, it's not exactly like the flag was completely disassociated from racist policies. I understand having a feeling for the history of it, but it's not like they picked just a random object as their symbol. Whether it's the entire history of the flag or not, it's a pretty significant symbol of the fight for slavery.

I think people are targeting the wrong thing if they are targeting the flag of the southern states during the civil war. It's a part of our history and we happened to have kept all of those states. I just don't see what destroying every semblance of that history solves. The flag isn't inherently racist.

 

[Jiggyfly]

I think people are targeting the wrong thing if they are targeting the flag of the southern states during the civil war. It's a part of our history and we happened to have kept all of those states. I just don't see what destroying every semblance of that history solves. The flag isn't inherently racist.

Uh yeah it kinda is, we are not talking about a original state flad but a flag that as created under particular circumstances which by the way were overtly racist.

Do they have to take it down no, but there should be a price to pay for advocating that kind symbolism. South Carolina was not created during the civil war.

By flying that flag you are sending a particular message.

But I do agree that flag had no particular bearing on this incident.

 

[boozeman]

I view the conferdeate flag as something that represents part of the history of this country. Even if you appose what it stands for or what you perceive it stands for it is still part of the country. Where do you stop with an eradication process and who determines what will be eradicated?

Growing up, that is how it was taught in schools. It was viewed as part of the history, not some idea that was adopted as a symbol of hate.

But in today's world, I guess people twist what they want to in order to fit their agenda.

 

[shane]

I hope they fly the flag higher. Piss on political correctness, and piss on the pussies willing to turn their backs on their heritage because of the feelings of some idiots and crybabies.

 

[townsend]

I hope they fly the flag higher. Piss on political correctness, and piss on the pussies willing to turn their backs on their heritage because of the feelings of some idiots and crybabies.

I'm absolutely certain that shooter would say exactly the same thing.

 

[Smitty]

Uh yeah it kinda is

I don't think you know what the word "inherently" means.

we are not talking about a original state flad but a flag that as created under particular circumstances which by the way were overtly racist.

The American flag itself was created under the same "particular circumstances" which were racist. The founding fathers owned slaves. There are mounds of laws, court decisions, etc, that go back to the very creation of the country, where they said "Freedom for everyone -- oh, but not for you black people, you stay in the under-class."

We, as a nation, have acknowledged that background, and are able to condemn those racist circumstances while also acknowledging that the founding fathers were way ahead of their time in terms of freedom, equality, and liberty. Never mind the fact that a flag is a piece of cloth and can't be "inherently" any kind of message, I'll go even further and say that just because the nation that founded the flag had slavery at the time, doesn't make the ideals it stands for racist.

People from the Southern states uphold the Confederate flag as a symbol of a lot of things besides racism. Some assholes use it to promote that, but if you think that the majority of southern people don't associate the flag with a multitude of ideals OTHER THAN racism, then you are the close-minded idiot, not them.

Hell, look at the British flag. The British Empire is almost single-handedly responsible for the importation of black slaves onto the American continent to begin with. If you really believed that a flag that was used to spread racism at one point in history must ALWAYS carry racist connotations, then you should be protesting the British flag like people protest the Swastika, as it was responsible for a faaaaar bigger cost of human life.

But people don't do that, because it's nonsense, and complaining about the Confederate flag is just a guise for complaining about Republican politics, so no one is fooled.

For the record, I could be convinced either way that the flag should stay or should go, because I don't know if I agree about flying the flags of other defeated former countries on government property. But it has nothing to do with the silly racism angle.

 

[townsend]

I don't think you know what the word "inherently" means.



The American flag itself was created under the same "particular circumstances" which were racist. The founding fathers owned slaves. There are mounds of laws, court decisions, etc, that go back to the very creation of the country, where they said "Freedom for everyone -- oh, but not for you black people, you stay in the under-class."

We, as a nation, have acknowledged that background, and are able to condemn those racist circumstances while also acknowledging that the founding fathers were way ahead of their time in terms of freedom, equality, and liberty. Never mind the fact that a flag is a piece of cloth and can't be "inherently" any kind of message, I'll go even further and say that just because the nation that founded the flag had slavery at the time, doesn't make the ideals it stands for racist.

People from the Southern states uphold the Confederate flag as a symbol of a lot of things besides racism. Some assholes use it to promote that, but if you think that the majority of southern people don't associate the flag with a multitude of ideals OTHER THAN racism, then you are the close-minded idiot, not them.

Hell, look at the British flag. The British Empire is almost single-handedly responsible for the importation of black slaves onto the American continent to begin with. If you really believed that a flag that was used to spread racism at one point in history must ALWAYS carry racist connotations, then you should be protesting the British flag like people protest the Swastika, as it was responsible for a faaaaar bigger cost of human life.

But people don't do that, because it's nonsense, and complaining about the Confederate flag is just a guise for complaining about Republican politics, so no one is fooled.

For the record, I could be convinced either way that the flag should stay or should go, because I don't know if I agree about flying the flags of other defeated former countries on government property. But it has nothing to do with the silly racism angle.

It's a swastika. I don't really care what else Nazi Germany stood for, it's known for a specific thing, and embraced by a certain type of person. If Germany wanted to fly the fucking swastika because it represented that heritage, I think there would be plenty of worthy push back against it. Because that heritage is a shameful one.

 

[Smitty]

It's a swastika. I don't really care what else Nazi Germany stood for, it's known for a specific thing, and embraced by a certain type of person. If Germany wanted to fly the fucking swastika because it represented that heritage, I think there would be plenty of worthy push back against it. Because that heritage is a shameful one.

You are proving my point -- when you say the flag is "embraced by a certain type of person." The swastika was used for millenia as a symbol that had nothing to do with racism, so kindly don't tell me it's "inherently" racist. The connotation changed because of how people used it, thereby proving that how people use a symbol is determinative of it's meaning.

So it has nothing to do with racism being "inherent" to the actual symbol of the swastika.

As far as comparing the swastika and the Confederate flag and how the two are currently used, well, there are some pretty fucking tangible differences. Neo-nazi's still use the Swastika to promote hate and racism ONLY, it is the centerpiece of their ideology and not much else. Meanwhile Nikki Haley flies the Confederate flag over South Carolina. Think she's a racist? No? How about all the harmless old southern folks who aren't racists but still plaster it on the back of their pickup trucks because they are thinking that they are espousing a message of State's rights?

Its use is much more akin to the fact that the American flag used to be the flag of a country that allowed slavery, but the people who fly the American flag have now changed their values. The usage of the confederate flag today is much closer to this, as opposed to being the symbol of a group of people who only use it to promote hate.

Maybe YOU still associate the confederate flag with racism, but that's TFB. YOU are telling other people what their symbol means. Well... sorry if it conjures up bad memories for YOU, but for them it has nothing to do with hate or racism. And it is certainly not "inherent." This is where our history classes have failed us... the Civil War was not about slavery, in fact Lincoln did not even want to free the slaves, so this concept that the Confederate flag was used as a rallying cry to keep slavery is simply false. It is the flag of a people who HAD slaves, but were fighting what they thought to be a tyrannical central government. Hmmm.... kinda like the American flag was, at its origin, the flag of a people who had slaves but were fighting a tyrannical central government.

Basically the same thing. It's northern liberals who associate the confederate flag with slavery, in an effort to denigrate and discredit the south, not southerners themselves. Most southerners, the ones who fought and died for it, didn't even own slaves.

 

[boozeman]

The battle flag "stars and bars", is a symbol.

It is an easy and very very ignorant way of conveying a message.

This is not time for intelligent discussion.

We must have idiotic symbolism.

It makes more sense than trying to understand something as awful as what Roof did.

He did it because of a flag, and stuff.

Makes it so much easier to digest.

 

[townsend]

Growing up, that is how it was taught in schools. It was viewed as part of the history, not some idea that was adopted as a symbol of hate.

But in today's world, I guess people twist what they want to in order to fit their agenda.

You are proving my point. The swastika was used for millenia as a symbol that had nothing to do with racism, so kindly don't tell me it's "inherently" racist. The connotation changed because of how people used it, thereby proving that how people use a symbol is determinative of it's meaning.

So it has nothing to do with racism being "inherent" to the actual symbol of the swastika.

As far as comparing the swastika and the Confederate flag and how the two are currently used, well, there are some pretty fucking tangible differences. Neo-nazi's still use the Swastika to promote hate and racism ONLY, it is the centerpiece of their ideology and not much else. Meanwhile Nikki Haley flies the Confederate flag over South Carolina. Think she's a racist? No? How about all the harmless old southern folks who aren't racists but still plaster it on the back of their pickup trucks because they are thinking that they are espousing a message of State's rights?

It is much more akin to the fact that the American flag used to be the flag of a country that allowed slavery, but the people who fly the American flag have now changed their values. The usage of the confederate flag today is much closer to this, as opposed to being the symbol of a group of people who only use it to promote hate.

Maybe YOU still associate the confederate flag with racism, but that is my point. YOU are telling other people what their symbol means. Well... sorry if it conjures up bad memories for YOU, but for them it has nothing to do with hate or racism. And it is certainly not "inherent." This is where our history classes have failed us... the Civil War was not about slavery, in fact Lincoln did not even want to free the slaves, so this concept that the Confederate flag was used as a rallying cry to keep slavery is simply false. It is the flag of a people who HAD slaves, but were fighting what they thought to be a tyrannical central government. Hmmm.... kinda like the American flag was, at its origin, the flag of a people who had slaves but were fighting a tyrannical central government.

Basically the same thing. It's northern liberals who associate the confederate flag with slavery, not the south. Most southerners, the ones who fought and died for it, didn't even own slaves.

So use matters. I agree to that. There's not a single country who could lean on the Swastika's 1000 years of history to justify its use on a flag. The commonalities between the two symbols are pretty huge. Primary symbol for white supremacists. Associated with a government defined by crimes against humanity. No one who has any connection to either government is alive.

That little piece of shit didnt pose with an American flag before he murdered 9 people. That's what he associates with the flag. Let me be clear because of the culture of that state. A state that would fly that ersatz swastika, the hateful murderous shit he said was laughed off, when it would have been a red flag (no pun intended) elsewhere. That's what that flag represents.

Don't act like I'm some irrational bleeding heart. I'm neither northern, not liberal. I just don't lean on an symbol that
1. Isn't the flag of the confederacy.
2. Gained popularity as a part of the backlash against integration.
3. Is primarily demonstrated by hate groups.
4. Has no "heritage" to pass on.

"Oh poor old white guys!" I challenge you to find me some harmless old man who loves his confederate flag who isn't shockingly, deafeningly racist.

 

[townsend]

The battle flag "stars and bars", is a symbol.

It is an easy and very very ignorant way of conveying a message.

This is not time for intelligent discussion.

We must have idiotic symbolism.

It makes more sense than trying to understand something as awful as what Roof did.

He did it because of a flag, and stuff.

Makes it so much easier to digest.

He absolutely didn't do it because of the flag. He did it because he's part of the growing scourge of solitary antisocial men who go on killing sprees. White supremacy (and its most dominant symbol) was the excuse he used. We can't fix one problem, but we can certainly disassociate from his flag.

 

[NoDak]

"Oh poor old white guys!" I challenge you to find me some harmless old man who loves his confederate flag who isn't shockingly, deafeningly racist.

How 'bout a young black man?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjAD&url=http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011 /12/02/black-college-student-wins-fight-to-display-confederate-flag-in-dorm-room/&ei=k4aHVanKO4rzUJ7egugI&usg=AFQjCNGGnizwfYfH2amOp2Hn88UGYdjwng&sig2=lg7-gSrSNAUGIrjirjm7bA

Or maybe an old one?

 

[boozeman]

How 'bout a young black man?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjAD&url=http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011 /12/02/black-college-student-wins-fight-to-display-confederate-flag-in-dorm-room/&ei=k4aHVanKO4rzUJ7egugI&usg=AFQjCNGGnizwfYfH2amOp2Hn88UGYdjwng&sig2=lg7-gSrSNAUGIrjirjm7bA

Or maybe an old one?

Just nonsense.

That kid clearly did not get his opinions cleared through Gawker.