Morning After: Dare to dream - Cowboys’ Super Bowl is a possibility

Smitty

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It's not a crackpot theory when the coach said himself, several times, that he wouldn't give up play calling. Fighting to keep control of the offense when Callahan was promoted to OC is even more evidence he would never give up play calling voluntarily. His hand was forced, he got to pick the guy, but he didn't have the option of keeping the offense himself. He didn't just wake up and pitch the idea of bringing in Linehan to Jerry.
We're not talking about whether Garrett was reluctant to give up playcalling; he clearly was.

We're talking about whether the reluctance to run was a result of him not wanting to run, or whether it was because we were not able to do it successfully.

It's the latter. And everything points to it being the latter.
 

Clay_Allison

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Could be right but I think Garrett has learned something in this whole ordeal. I am counting on his intelligence to rule his thinking process in the future. I am sure Jones has been convinced as well. Balance makes for the best offense.
He could have learned his lesson, hard to believe considering how arrogant he's been, but there's no motivator like self interest. Fortunately, there's no guarantee Jerry would let him go back to the way things were. He still hasn't given Garrett that extension, and I would hope he'd demand that JG stick to the winning formula.
 

Smitty

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You didn't cite evidence you promoted theory just like the rest of us.
Sure I did. Box scores, heavy use of the draw, name dropping Phil Costa and Nate Livings, etc.

Those are players who can't run block. Notice that they went from our team to out of the league pretty quickly. Quality run blockers to build around, if we believe your theory! Another ridiculous hole in your argument.

The draw is something you use as trickery when straight up run blocking is ineffective. The box scores don't lie.

I'll get more later. I'm already thinking of one game recap by Sturm, if I can find it.
 
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Clay_Allison

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We're not talking about whether Garrett was reluctant to give up playcalling; he clearly was.

We're talking about whether the reluctance to run was a result of him not wanting to run, or whether it was because we were not able to do it successfully.

It's the latter. And everything points to it being the latter.
The reason we couldn't do it successfully is on him. If Rob Ryan could lobby for CBs, Garrett could have lobbied for linemen from 2007 to 2010. He only suddenly, supposedly, gave a shit about that when he became HC (only he didn't care too much, he was cool with adding only one new lineman per season and using crap like Holland, Livings, Bernadeau and Costa in the meantime).
 

Smitty

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Bull and shit.

We ran Murray 22 times last week. What was his YPC? 2.7? 2.8? It wasn't working. We ran it anyway.

Two weeks ago at Philly. Ran Murray 31 or something times. 80 something yards. Again less than 3 a carry. Ran it anyway.

Against St. Louis, down 21 or whatever still ran the ball.

By contrast, last year against Green Bay. Ran for I think over 5 yards a carry. Had a huge lead. Stopped running it, stunningly stupid, and lost.

This notion that we played the way we did in the past because we weren't capable of playing any other way is complete bullshit.

And the main reason we changed is because Linehan is here.

Go ahead and quote Sturm's opinion some more. It means squat to me. He's not right 100% of the time and he's certainly wrong here.

You can still run the ball on a regular basis even if it's not particularly effective in yardage, and were absolutely able to run the ball prior to this year.
The reason this approach is effective now is because teams have had to overcommit to stopping the run to limit it. This has opened them up to being shredded in the pass game. What's that? Tony Romo has 10 TDs and no INTs in these couple of games where Murray is being held to a low ypc? Bingo.

Wasn't the case back in 2011-12. Running headfirst into a wall was not successful and did not open things up for us.

You can ignore Sturm if you want, but hes broken it down many times, which is more than we can say about your input on the subject. Meanwhile, the only sources you guys have is each other.
 

L.T. Fan

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We're not talking about whether Garrett was reluctant to give up playcalling; he clearly was.

We're talking about whether the reluctance to run was a result of him not wanting to run, or whether it was because we were not able to do it successfully.

It's the latter. And everything points to it being the latter.
And that is your agenda. You want to believe that Garrett could not have taken a different approach to his coaching philosophy. I and several others do not buy into that because of the circumstances that occurred as his career evolved with Dallas. If we are going to bring the media guys into it then how about all the speculation each year in the media about getting fired and how he couldn't control a game because of his approach to the game.
 
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Smitty

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The reason we couldn't do it successfully is on him. If Rob Ryan could lobby for CBs, Garrett could have lobbied for linemen from 2007 to 2010. He only suddenly, supposedly, gave a shit about that when he became HC (only he didn't care too much, he was cool with adding only one new lineman per season and using crap like Holland, Livings, Bernadeau and Costa in the meantime).
m

This is true to an extent and I never denied that, but it's kinda a separate issue. Doesn't change the fact that once we had our personnel, it was not possible to sustain a run attack like we have now.

Also... three OLs in four years in the first... Clearly we fixed that issue.
 

Smitty

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And that is your agenda. You want to believe that Garrett could not have taken a different approach to his coaching philosophy. I and several others do not buy into that because of the circumstances that occurred as his career evolved with Dallas. If we are going to bring the media guys into it then how about all the speculation each year in the media about getting fired and how he couldn't control a game because of his approach to the game.
If we're gonna talk about his game management blunders, that is more than fair; there is plenty of evidence of those. I would attribute his mismanagement of the Green Bay and Detroit games in that category. In those games, even running into a wall and going three and out and punting wins you the games, and he should have realized that.

But if you switch gears to say the run was ineffective because Garrett didn't focus on it, that is where it enters the realm of fantasy and you become dead wrong.
 

L.T. Fan

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If we're gonna talk about his game management blunders, that is more than fair; there is plenty of evidence of those. I would attribute his mismanagement of the Green Bay and Detroit games in that category. In those games, even running into a wall and going three and out and punting wins you the games, and he should have realized that.

But if you switch gears to say the run was ineffective because Garrett didn't focus on it, that is where it enters the realm of fantasy and you become dead wrong.
Wasn't talking about management blunders. I was talking about the media attacking Garretts philosophy.
 

Smitty

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Wasn't talking about management blunders. I was talking about the media attacking Garretts philosophy.
Ok... Please point me to the media member who writes articles about the offense's performance in depth every week like Sturm does, and who substantiates the opinion that Garrett refused to run the ball and that was the reason it was ineffective.
 

L.T. Fan

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m

This is true to an extent and I never denied that, but it's kinda a separate issue. Doesn't change the fact that once we had our personnel, it was not possible to sustain a run attack like we have now.

Also... three OLs in four years in the first... Clearly we fixed that issue.
If that's your math then only one fixed it because the change wasn't made until two were already in place.

Regardless, It is obvious each has their own opinion and the positions aren't going to change so I am probably done with this discussion.
 

Smitty

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If that's your math then only one fixed it because the change wasn't made until two were already in place.
Incorrect.

We entered 2012 still having Costa, Bernadeau and Livings. Couldn't run block.

We entered 2013 with Bernadeau, a rookie Frederick, and a developing UDFA in Leary who really only played Bernadeau to a draw as the season went on.

We entered 2014 with a proven Frederick, a rookie guard who quickly established himself as a rookie if the year candidate, an an OG in Leary who had improved drastically and quickly separated himself from Bernadeau the JAG.
 

Clay_Allison

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If we're gonna talk about his game management blunders, that is more than fair; there is plenty of evidence of those. I would attribute his mismanagement of the Green Bay and Detroit games in that category. In those games, even running into a wall and going three and out and punting wins you the games, and he should have realized that.

But if you switch gears to say the run was ineffective because Garrett didn't focus on it, that is where it enters the realm of fantasy and you become dead wrong.
I guess it depends on what you mean by focusing on it. He didn't focus on getting the line he needed for way way way too long. He had a lot of opportunities to stand on a table for guys like Ryan Kalil, Max Unger, Duane Brown, and he only showed interest in skill players.
 

Smitty

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I guess it depends on what you mean by focusing on it. He didn't focus on getting the line he needed for way way way too long. He had a lot of opportunities to stand on a table for guys like Ryan Kalil, Max Unger, Duane Brown, and he only showed interest in skill players.
He could have, yes. I'm not sure how much say he actually had prior to becoming HC, but yeah, the obsession with getting a TE has for sure interfered with personnel.

But people have said things like "he didn't practice running the ball" or "the run was ineffective only because it was called so rarely" and those are untrue statements.

The running game was poor because for a couple years we were running behind the Phil Costas, Nate Livings, and Ryan Cooks of the world. And don't forget that Doug Free really sucked for a two year window there as well.
 

Chocolate Lab

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Incorrect.

We entered 2012 still having Costa, Bernadeau and Livings. Couldn't run block.

We entered 2013 with Bernadeau, a rookie Frederick, and a developing UDFA in Leary who really only played Bernadeau to a draw as the season went on.

We entered 2014 with a proven Frederick, a rookie guard who quickly established himself as a rookie if the year candidate, an an OG in Leary who had improved drastically and quickly separated himself from Bernadeau the JAG.
It's simply not true that the pieces weren't in place to run it last year. In 2013 we were 8th in the NFL at 4.5 YPA.

Guess what we are this year?

That's right, 4.5 YPA.

But by all means, keep believing that the introduction of Linehan and the emphasis on running it more was sheer coincidence.
 

Smitty

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It's simply not true that the pieces weren't in place to run it last year. In 2013 we were 8th in the NFL at 4.5 YPA.
You need to read more carefully.

The pieces were not in place until and through 2012.

And in 2013, the pieces were unproven. And they started out the season very inconsistently. Check the box scores... 5 of the first 7 weeks they were below 4 ypc in 2013.

There was no reason to believe they were significantly better until later in the year when it started to come together and inflate the ypc average.

Garrett took too long to realize that, but those couple games he was slow to develop doesn't demonstrate a willing disregard of the run.

Guess what we are this year?

That's right, 4.5 YPA.
A much different 4.5 per carry, I assure you. This one has been accomplished facing heavy 8-9 man fronts a lot. It's why Romo is tearing it up so easily right now.

But by all means, keep believing that the introduction of Linehan and the emphasis on running it more was sheer coincidence.
It's not coincidence. Linehan has proven a better situational playcaller and of course has proven he's able to stick with the run for his own part.

But it's not as if Garrett isn't involved in this decision and it's not as if personnel isn't the biggest factor. Linehan last year threw the ball nearly as much as Garrett did. This year he and Garrett, in collaboration, have run the ball. It's because they have the horses to do so.
 
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Clay_Allison

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He could have, yes. I'm not sure how much say he actually had prior to becoming HC, but yeah, the obsession with getting a TE has for sure interfered with personnel.

But people have said things like "he didn't practice running the ball" or "the run was ineffective only because it was called so rarely" and those are untrue statements.

The running game was poor because for a couple years we were running behind the Phil Costas, Nate Livings, and Ryan Cooks of the world. And don't forget that Doug Free really sucked for a two year window there as well.
No one thinks the running game could have been great in 2011 or 2012 with that personnel. You're arguing against a point nobody is making. I've only ever said that we could have gotten ~3 yards per carry and protected the defense better, even with a bad running game. We did it in 2003 (515 rushing attempts) with an equally bad line, an assortment of bad RBs and no QB.
 

Smitty

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No one thinks the running game could have been great in 2011 or 2012 with that personnel. You're arguing against a point nobody is making.
Pretty sure LT's point is that the run was a weakness because Garrett would abandon it.

That is incorrect.

I'd like to hope that's not the point you are making as well. If it's not, good.

I've only ever said that we could have gotten ~3 yards per carry and protected the defense better, even with a bad running game. We did it in 2003 (515 rushing attempts) with an equally bad line, an assortment of bad RBs and no QB.
I don't know if that was better. We ran in 2003 because Quincy Carter was the QB. In 2012 we had Tony Romo. Made sense to lean on him.

Other than, of course, the clearly foolish decisions in games like GB and Detroit where yes, it got away from him and he managed the game poorly.
 

Clay_Allison

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Pretty sure LT's point is that the run was a weakness because Garrett would abandon it.

That is incorrect.

I'd like to hope that's not the point you are making as well. If it's not, good.



I don't know if that was better. We ran in 2003 because Quincy Carter was the QB. In 2012 we had Tony Romo. Made sense to lean on him.

Other than, of course, the clearly foolish decisions in games like GB and Detroit where yes, it got away from him and he managed the game poorly.
No, it didn't make sense to lean on Romo because we would have won more games keeping those 2011-2013 defenses off the field as long as possible. Working time of possession in our favor and having players like Ware and Hatcher still fresh in the 4th quarter would have kept the word "gutless" out of a lot of chatter threads. That's not rocket science, that's football 101.
 

L.T. Fan

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Pretty sure LT's point is that the run was a weakness because Garrett would abandon it.

That is incorrect.

I'd like to hope that's not the point you are making as well. If it's not, good.



I don't know if that was better. We ran in 2003 because Quincy Carter was the QB. In 2012 we had Tony Romo. Made sense to lean on him.

Other than, of course, the clearly foolish decisions in games like GB and Detroit where yes, it got away from him and he managed the game poorly.
I was saying the opposite. I think they should have run more but Garrett' s philosophical mindset wouldn't stick with it.
 
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