Sturm: Garrett Overview - 6 Years of Data

[Foobio]

 

[Clff15701]

Anyone who watched the draft could see Jerry was running the show. You cant have the worst GM in football and expect your HC to pull a miracle out of talent he doesnt have. We are the only team that tries fill our starting line with undrafted players and expect Romo to put up All Pro numbers.

 

[townsend]

Garrett's out of Excuses, since he became the guy in charge of the offense, he's taken a team that was #2 and #6 in points scored in the two years previous, and successfully stayed entrenched in the middle of the pack. Despite having Pro Bowl recievers (Miles Austin, Terrell Owens, Dez Bryant, and Roy Williams) at his disposal, A hall of fame TE, a collection of running backs that all showed promise (Barber, F. Jones, Choice, Murray), and a QB whose production was 2nd in the NFL behind (record breaking) Tom Brady the year he took over.

The offensive line was fairly dominant in 07, and fell off the map the next year. Since then guys that looked like they were doing well (Davis/Free/Smith) have only gotten worse with time under Garrett. I remember when Flozell Adams was on the chopping block in 02, and Bill Parcells pushed him to be a pro bowler, or when Colombo was turned into a decent starter after getting pulled off Chicago's scrap heap. Andre Gurode had been benched in favor of Al Johnson, before he turned it around, and became a pro bowler. It's funny that since the Wade/Garrett era started in Dallas, we haven't developed any offensive linemen, and the guys we thought would turn into something have precipitously regressed.

I submit that while the Cowboys haven't been perfectly built, and the GM has some issues acquiring talent (especially offensive linemen). Jerry's greatest failure is hiring a grossly under qualified and unsuccessful quarterback's coach as the heir apparent for the HC gig.

 

[Smitty]

I submit that while the Cowboys haven't been perfectly built, and the GM has some issues acquiring talent (especially offensive linemen). Jerry's greatest failure is hiring a grossly under qualified and unsuccessful quarterback's coach as the heir apparent for the HC gig.

Not even close.

 

[townsend]

Not even close.

If I had to list Jerry's biggest failure's, that would be #1. Garrett is the reason Jerry sought out a neutered lame duck HC in Wade. That's 6 years of wasting excellent talent that had been developed by Parcells and company.
You could definitely argue that Jerry's habit of giving mediocre talent unwarranted extensions is his greatest flaw, but I think that Garrett's employment is a symptom of that disease.

 

[Simpleton]

I think Jerry is a dumb fuck that knows dick and shit about football, so I'd say that's his biggest failure.

 

[townsend]

I think Jerry is a dumb fuck that knows dick and shit about football, so I'd say that's his biggest failure.

Yeah definitely a big flaw. but even worse, he's a guy who doesn't know anything about football, and refuses to delegate. Most owners don't know anything about football, he's just a guy who thinks he can make the decisions of a GM without any of the qualifications. Once again, Garrett's employment is a symptom.

 

[lostxn]

I'm overall not a Garrett hater - at all. I mostly blame Jerry. However, this article is really compelling. His plans do suck. The team goes into each game unprepared and Romo basically has to suss out how to beat the other team. Most of the time he does but as often as not, runs out of time.

I suppose it's possible that Romo is just not preparing himself, not doing tape review. That would mirror Jerry's remarks. I don't really buy it though. Romo is competitive as hell. You can see it in the way he plays. I really doubt he's not preparing himself.

I think it's on Garrett.

 

[Clay_Allison]

Smitty will just argue that Garrett should have been the HC from day one instead of Wade. He lives in a fantasy world where if he likes a guy's press conferences that's more important than if a guy has ever even coached before.

He says Lovie Smith is in the same class as Garrett. Nevermind actual accomplishments, those are just the facts getting in the way of Smitty's intuition.

BTW, that Chicago organization is no well oiled machine. Winning there is about as hard as winning in Dallas.

 

[Smitty]

I think Jerry is a dumb fuck that knows dick and shit about football, so I'd say that's his biggest failure.

You can take whatever townsend is saying about this subject and toss it out the window after that gem.

Jerry's #1 failure isn't anything close to Jason Garrett.

This conversation has shed some interesting light on the Garrett haters ridiculous mentality though.

 

[Smitty]

I'm overall not a Garrett hater - at all. I mostly blame Jerry. However, this article is really compelling. His plans do suck. The team goes into each game unprepared and Romo basically has to suss out how to beat the other team. Most of the time he does but as often as not, runs out of time.

I suppose it's possible that Romo is just not preparing himself, not doing tape review. That would mirror Jerry's remarks. I don't really buy it though. Romo is competitive as hell. You can see it in the way he plays. I really doubt he's not preparing himself.

I think it's on Garrett.

Would his plans work if the OL was say, as good as the Giants OL? Or the Redskins?

I think yes.

 

[Smitty]

Smitty will just argue that Garrett should have been the HC from day one instead of Wade. He lives in a fantasy world where if he likes a guy's press conferences that's more important than if a guy has ever even coached before.

You and your brother live in a fantasy world where Jason Garrett is Jerry Jones' #1 failure.

He says Lovie Smith is in the same class as Garrett. Nevermind actual accomplishments, those are just the facts getting in the way of Smitty's intuition.

1 playoff appearance in 6 years is very average. So yeah, you don't have a legit counterargument to that as of this point.

BTW, that Chicago organization is no well oiled machine. Winning there is about as hard as winning in Dallas.

And the results have been the same as in Dallas the past 6 years. 1 playoff appearance. Garrett wasn't HC, but he was here during that 6 years running the offense.

So.... yeah, thanks for proving they are in the same class and that Lovie Smith would go 6 years without any success here in Dallas as well, before he'd be fired (if he even made it that long, which, judging by people's reactions after 2 seasons without playoffs, he would not).

 

[Clay_Allison]

You and your brother live in a fantasy world where Jason Garrett is Jerry Jones' #1 failure.



1 playoff appearance in 6 years is very average. So yeah, you don't have a legit counterargument to that as of this point.



And the results have been the same as in Dallas the past 6 years. 1 playoff appearance. Garrett wasn't HC, but he was here during that 6 years running the offense.

So.... yeah, thanks for proving they are in the same class and that Lovie Smith would go 6 years without any success here in Dallas as well, before he'd be fired (if he even made it that long, which, judging by people's reactions after 2 seasons without playoffs, he would not).

I didn't say hiring Garrett was Jones' number one mistake, but it has been a huge error that has dramatically held back the organization ever since. Even you admitted at one time that hiring the OC before the HC was stupid.

You also can't just cherry pick the years you want. You're being intentionally dishonest as usual.

Garrett still doesn't have a playoff appearance as HC. Smith has a playoff win during that time. You characterized it as an "appearance" rather than a win because you are making a dishonest argument.

Also, since playoff appearances as a coordinator count, he went to the Super Bowl as DC of the St Louis Rams.

Also, Smith's side of the ball, defense, was elite about half the time in Chicago. Garrett's offense has been elite exactly never.

 

[Rev]

Oh Cracka Snap!

 

[Cotton]

Oh Cracka Snap!

 

[Smitty]

I didn't say hiring Garrett was Jones' number one mistake, but it has been a huge error that has dramatically held back the organization ever since. Even you admitted at one time that hiring the OC before the HC was stupid.

So you admit that it's not Jones' biggest mistake. That's good, because that would be a ridiculous thing to say.

You also can't just cherry pick the years you want. You're being intentionally dishonest as usual.

I'm not being intentionally dishonest, you are not understanding what I'm saying. You yourself have many times made the argument "Well Parcells in the 2000s isn't the same coach he was in the 80's."

This is a variation of what I am saying about Lovie Smith. I don't care what he did in 2006 -- I do not believe he is capable of duplicating that effort at this point in his career. The evidence backs that up because he has been out of the playoffs for the past 6 seasons, except once.

If that's a dishonest argument, then you have been dishonest many times, so stop talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Garrett still doesn't have a playoff appearance as HC. Smith has a playoff win during that time. You characterized it as an "appearance" rather than a win because you are making a dishonest argument.

I don't see how that changes anything. One playoff appearance, one playoff win, WGAS? It's not good enough.

I like how, since you can't argue the facts, you have to resort to calling me a liar. That's cute.

As for Garrett not having one playoff appearance as a HC... well, the only way to give it an equal test would be to give Garrett 6 years.

I'm not interested in being exactly equal though, I don't care if Lovie Smith is two spots ahead of Garrett on the coaching ranks. I am speaking in generalities, and when I do so, I am saying, completely accurately, that Jason Garrett's 2 years of 8-8 are roughly the same quality of coaching job we've seen in the past 6 years of Lovie Smith in Chicago. As evidenced by the fact that Lovie Smith has been to the playoffs once in 6 years.

And even IF that one playoff appearance somehow made Lovie Smith the better coach -- it's still beside my point. My point is, zero playoff wins, one playoff win, zero playoff apperances, whatever. WHO GIVES A FUCK. Functionally, it's all the same.

Lovie Smith isn't going to come into Dallas and do a lick better than he did in his last 6 years in Chicago. That's the point. The performance Lovie Smith achieved in Chicago his past 6 seasons there would result in similar playoff success, ie, he will miss the playoff more often than he makes it, probably at a rate of about 1 in 6.

That performance is what you get when you have an average coach (like both Smith and Garrett are) saddled with a poor front office (as they each had in Chicago and Dallas).

Neither of these coaches are elite, franchise-changing coaches who could come in here and clean up this mess. Neither of these coaches are so bad that they are going to weigh the franchise down even further like Wade or Campo did.

They are just average. Maybe they get hot one year. Maybe they underachieve other years. The only thing for sure is that you won't get over the hump.

PS.... Garrett's offense was elite in 2007.

 

[lostxn]

Would his plans work if the OL was say, as good as the Giants OL? Or the Redskins?

I think yes.

You have to gameplan for the team you have, not the team who wished you had. You match up your team's strengths versus the other teams weaknesses and go from there.

Ah, mschmidt64 versus the world, take 837...

 

[Smitty]

You have to gameplan for the team you have, not the team who wished you had. You match up your team's strengths versus the other teams weaknesses and go from there.

Ah, mschmidt64 versus the world, take 837...

Well I would agree that Garrett has not been able to adapt to his personnel weaknesses, so I'm not "versus" anybody on that point.

More important, though, is the fact that there are very few coaches who could overcome the type of personnel deficiencies we have.

 

[townsend]

Well I would agree that Garrett has not been able to adapt to his personnel weaknesses, so I'm not "versus" anybody on that point.

More important, though, is the fact that there are very few coaches who could overcome the type of personnel deficiencies we have.

Says who? The offense by committee was much more successful in previous years.

Blaming talent is easy, you could just as easily apologize for Dave Campo with your screwy logic. But damn if a real coach didn't take that same shitty team to 10-6 in 03.

Same with Harbaugh and the 9ers. Even coaches like L. Smith and Whisenhunt (Who haven't achieved your Messiah status) led deeply flawed teams to the Superbowl.

THE HOLOCAUST WAS A LIE! There, now you have something to mindlessly cherry pick without addressing any of my points.

 

[Smitty]

Says who? The offense by committee was much more successful in previous years.

Well, for one, says Bob Sturm. Despite the fact that he acknowledged, as I do, that the game plans were not great, the thing he says first is "YOU MUST UPGRADE THE OL SO THE COACH CAN TRUST THEM TO DO BASIC THINGS."

Go write it on a chalkboard until it makes sense to you, dude. We can't run certain things because the OL is not capable of executing certain tasks. Every single coach is lessened in effectiveness when this is the case.

Blaming talent is easy, you could just as easily apologize for Dave Campo with your screwy logic. But damn if a real coach didn't take that same shitty team to 10-6 in 03.

A Hall of Famer elite coach in one of the best single-season coaching jobs of even his illustrious career, yeah, he sure did.

As soon as you can find me another Bill Parcells I will fire Garrett so fast it will make your head spin. So I don't know why you guys keep citing elite coaches as examples of why Garrett sucks... I agree Garrett does not stack up with Parcells.

The point you cannot successfully rebut is that Garrett did not do a worse job in his last 2 years here than Lovie Smith did in his past 6, or worse than a lot of coaches do in their respective stops.

Same with Harbaugh and the 9ers.

Harbaugh is a fantastic coach. Who said otherwise? So is Andy Reid, so is Sean Payton, so is Mike McCarthy, so is Rex Ryan, etc. None of those guys are currently available.

You know who is available? Lovie Smith. Except he would not get better results as proven by his last 6 years in Chicago.