Am I Being Realistic

[Smitty]

Bottom 3rd of the league both years.

So? We're not arguing where they fall in league ranks. What if the #1 team had 432 carries, then each team had 1 less carry, down to the 32nd team having just 400? There would be very little tangible difference in performance.

420 carries is a significant difference compared to 336, which was the unacceptable number in 2013. No one complained when he ran it 420 times in 2007. Running the ball 420 times is a significant increase, and that is what I'm saying we'd see this season -- probably a little more -- if Garrett was calling plays now.

That is the basis... no matter where he fell in league ranks, he ran the ball about 420 times with a better OL. That is how I know he'd do it again.

So, Linehan has shown (as he has done in the past) that he can adjust. Garrett (as has been proven in the past) can't. Thank you for supporting my point.

All that has been shown is that both Linehan and Garrett run it more when they have the personnel to do so. Saying that when Linehan runs it more, it's "adjustment" and when Garrett ran it more, it's something else, is completely disingenuous.

Linehan adjusted his run calls up from 2013 to 2014 when he went from a weak running team to a strong running team. Garrett adjusted his run calls down from the higher period of 2007-2008 to when we bottomed out as a poor running team in 2011-2013.

That's the exact same phenomenon. Pass a lot when the team is set up to pass.... run more when its set up to run. The difference is what calendar year they did it in.

 

[Smitty]

2007 = 36 rushes by Tony Romo/Brad Johnson. Likely scrambles or QB sneaks
2008 = 30 rushes by Tony Romo/Brad Johnson. Likely scrambles or QB sneaks

I assume the rushing attempts of all teams include similar numbers of QB scrambles and sneaks.

 

[jsmith6919]

this is insane..we lead the league in ypc yet we were a poor running team in 2013. Nevermind that other treams were saying we had the best zbs in the league, that doesn't fit the Garrett the savior narrative

 

[Smitty]

this is insane..we lead the league in ypc yet we were a poor running team in 2013. Nevermind that other treams were saying we had the best zbs in the league, that doesn't fit the Garrett the savior narrative

Please try to follow along. We were under 4 ypc for 5 of the first 7 games of the regular season.... in the back half, that number shot up. We've covered this already.

 

[data]

I assume the rushing attempts of all teams include similar numbers of QB scrambles and sneaks.

Of course. As basis of comparison:
2008
NY Giants (a notorious run heavy team): 502 total rushes - 28 QB attempts (E Manning and D Carr) = 474
Phi Eagles (a notorious pass happy team): 427 total rushes - 52 QB attempts (McNabb and K Kolb) = 375
Wa Redskins: 478 total rushes - 47 QB attempts (J Campbell) = 431

 

[jsmith6919]

Please try to follow along. We were under 4 ypc for 5 of the first 7 games of the regular season.... in the back half, that number shot up. We've covered this already.

I follow just fine, it seems you are the one on a quixotic like quest to prove that Garrett wants to run the ball even though he had to be removed from playcalling for it too happen

 

[Clay_Allison]

My argument is that if we fixed the line, we'd see the running game improve and the carries go up. Something I said long, long ago, by the way, before these lines in the sand regarding Garrett had been drawn like they are now.

I never said that Garrett would be running the ball 500 times a season, just that it would be way up, comparatively to the last couple seasons where our line has sucked and we've been running it around the 330-350 mark, which everyone wrongfully attributed to Garrett just "not wanting to run it" more than that.

If you want to say 420 or so still isn't "a lot" then fine, we can say that it's not "a lot" but its a lot more than the last 3 years.

If Garrett was calling the plays and finished by running the ball 420 times this year, it would still be stupid.

With this line and this QB and this defense we had better run it at least 500 times. Even if we have to give Randle 150 of those carries to keep Murray from burning out.

 

[Smitty]

I follow just fine, it seems you are the one on a quixotic like quest to prove that Garrett wants to run the ball even though he had to be removed from playcalling for it too happen

My "quest" is to prove that he is not the run hating idiot who only wants to run the ball 330 times a season, that a small segment of the fan base tries to portray him as.

And actually it's not much of a quest because it's easily proven. The harder part is convincing a bunch of people who hate him to admit that the biggest reason he ran the ball 336 times instead of 420 times was almost entirely because of personnel limitations, first real (for 3.5 seasons) then merely perceived for a handful of games.

 

[Smitty]

If Garrett was calling the plays and finished by running the ball 420 times this year, it would still be stupid.

With this line and this QB and this defense we had better run it at least 500 times.

I'm not entirely sure I want to run it 500 times. The teams that run it that much are generally teams who lack the QB to be deadly effective passing it -- San Fran, Seattle, etc. Philadelphia was a team that was deadly passing and still got to 500 carries... I definitely would want that, but they had a pretty amazing offensive year last year in terms of tempo, so it might be hard to match that just on number of plays run.

We have Romo, Dez and Witten, though. As teams begin to stack the box every week, we can kill them more and more with the pass, specifically playaction.

I'd be more than happy with 460-480. Plus then maybe Murrary isn't dead, come the playoffs (or next season).

 

[data]

And actually it's not much of a quest because it's easily proven.

if this is your definition of easily proven.

he ran the ball 336 times instead of 420 times was almost entirely because of personnel limitations

If you want the reason of 'personnel' to have any credibility, you're better off arguing that having the exceptional passing ability of Romo, not the personnel limitations, are the reasons why we pass.

How did our playcalling change when Kitna, Brad Johnson and Kyle Orton started the game (and the game wasn't a blowout)?

 

[boozeman]

Please try to follow along. We were under 4 ypc for 5 of the first 7 games of the regular season.... in the back half, that number shot up. We've covered this already.

The Green Bay game shoots your entire apologetic theory out of the fucking water. So does having Orton throw 46 times as well.

It is not about YPC, it is about a commitment to the running game as a team philosophy. You cannot tell me that simply adding one guy (Martin) to replace Waters/Bernadeau is a personnel problem. If you are committed, your offensive design and playcalling mesh to form running the ball as part of your philosophy or it doesn't. Period.

We covered this already.

 

[Smitty]

The Green Bay game shoots your entire apologetic theory out of the fucking water.

No, it doesn't. We've covered this already.

It is not about YPC, it is about a commitment to the running game as a team philosophy. You cannot tell me that simply adding one guy (Martin) to replace Waters/Bernadeau is a personnel problem. If you are committed, your offensive design and playcalling mesh to form running the ball as part of your philosophy or it doesn't. Period.

I'm not talking about "commitment to the running game as a team philosophy."

I'm arguing Garrett ran it so few times in 2013 and 2012 because of a lack of trust in his personnel. I only believe the extent of his commitment to the running game would be back up by his previous highs in 2007, 2008, etc. But that's not 336, it's a gigantic difference, and while 400-420 is still pass happy, it's enormously different than the past 3 years.

 

[boozeman]

No, it doesn't. We've covered this already.

No, you covered it like Michael Flatley riverdancing around it because it was Garrett.

You don't throw the ball 48 times with a lead like that if you just don't trust the OL. You don't run the ball perhaps what, five times in the second half with that lead? That happens because that is what you believe in. He had already seized the playcard back from Callahan and he was responsible. There has been ONE starter replaced from that Green Bay line to now. So it was a lack of trust in Bernadeau that led to that crap?

A playcaller that believes in running the football does what has been done this year. They close out games with it for the win, and that isn't something I have seen a Garrett coached Cowboy offense but a handful of times since the guy was handed the job on a silver platter. Even the days "when he trusted the OL" he had Sparano around wiping his ass.

I'm arguing Garrett ran it so few times in 2013 and 2012 because of a lack of trust in his personnel.

And he was complicit in that personnel. He was not some handpicked HC in waiting.

I only believe the extent of his commitment to the running game would be back up by his previous highs in 2007, 2008, etc. But that's not 336, it's a gigantic difference, and while 400-420 is still pass happy, it's enormously different than the past 3 years.

Whatever it is right now, it is not Garrett just getting more comfortable.

If it is, well, he's been coaching like a scared little twit if so.

I think it is having Linehan around, much like Sparano, providing a little common sense to his arrogance about his offensive design.

I think I have been pretty clear about how I think Garrett's intellectual arrogance bled into the rest of the offense and how we do things.

 

[Clay_Allison]

I'm not entirely sure I want to run it 500 times. The teams that run it that much are generally teams who lack the QB to be deadly effective passing it -- San Fran, Seattle, etc. Philadelphia was a team that was deadly passing and still got to 500 carries... I definitely would want that, but they had a pretty amazing offensive year last year in terms of tempo, so it might be hard to match that just on number of plays run.

We have Romo, Dez and Witten, though. As teams begin to stack the box every week, we can kill them more and more with the pass, specifically playaction.

I'd be more than happy with 460-480. Plus then maybe Murrary isn't dead, come the playoffs (or next season).

You can kill a team with play action on any pass. You don't need 100 extra passes to get that done. Fewer passes better opportunities, keep the D off the field.

San Fran, Seattle? That's what you DON'T want to be? That's what I want our team to be.

 

[boozeman]

Philly with Foles is not deadly passing.

Seattle with Wilson is not lacking a QB.

There is something to a running game with efficient passing. It kinda won us Super Bowls.

 

[Smitty]

We ran the ball 500 times in 1992 and 490 times in 1993.

That was twenty years ago when the league was much more run oriented and the rules were different.

I think running 460-480 times in 2014 would be more than fine.

I'd love to be Seattle or San Fran on defense. No, I do not aspire to be like their offenses though. I'd like to be more pass oriented with the QB we have. Not saying go back to 2012-2013, where we ran the ball 330-350 times. Just saying I don't want to be a complete ground and pound team like Seattle and SF.

 

[Smitty]

You don't throw the ball 48 times with a lead like that if you just don't trust the OL. You don't run the ball perhaps what, five times in the second half with that lead? That happens because that is what you believe in. He had already seized the playcard back from Callahan and he was responsible. There has been ONE starter replaced from that Green Bay line to now. So it was a lack of trust in Bernadeau that led to that crap?

No... like I already said three times (hence the "we covered this already") that GB game was obviously completely inexcusable. And he is responsible for that.

However, the habitual run negligence was nowhere as severe as that one game. IN GENERAL, his aversion to the run stemmed from no faith in personnel.

No, it was not a "lack of trust in Bernadeau." It was the fact that the line had not proven that it was capable of successfully run blocking in a very long time.... for example.... the first 7 games of the year, we averaged less than 4 ypc in 5 five of them.

A playcaller that believes in running the football does what has been done this year. They close out games with it for the win, and that isn't something I have seen a Garrett coached Cowboy offense but a handful of times since the guy was handed the job on a silver platter. Even the days "when he trusted the OL" he had Sparano around wiping his ass.

Garrett is and always will be personally pass heavy. I've said that before too. I'm not saying, and never have said, that he plans to run the ball 500 times a year.

What I am saying is that the offense he was running in 2007, 2008, and even 2009 before they completely broke down, he was interested in running the ball because he had trust in the OL, and so that was reflected by him running the ball in the 400-420 range instead of 336.

And he was complicit in that personnel. He was not some handpicked HC in waiting.

Agreed... to an extent. Of course, that also means he gets the credit for bringing these guys in.

Whatever it is right now, it is not Garrett just getting more comfortable.

If it is, well, he's been coaching like a scared little twit if so.

I think it is having Linehan around, much like Sparano, providing a little common sense to his arrogance about his offensive design.

I think I have been pretty clear about how I think Garrett's intellectual arrogance bled into the rest of the offense and how we do things.

Of course Linehan is having an effect. Like I said, I am not saying Garrett would be on pace for 500 carries by himself.

But it'd be back on pace for 400-420 or so like in 2007, 2008. Probably a little more because this line is much better than those years.

Sparano wasn't there in 2008 or 2009, so you can't lay that on him.

 

[L.T. Fan]

That was in Feburary. I think the way they have modified Romo is before he was given 2 plays. One a run and one a pass. Romo could opt for either. Now the system is Romo is still given two pays but there are two pass pays or two run pays. With this system when a run is called it will be a run of one or the other. The same for passing. This has modified Romo's ability to discard the run.

 

[Rev]

5.3 bitches!

 

[GShock]

We ran the ball 500 times in 1992 and 490 times in 1993.

That was twenty years ago when the league was much more run oriented and the rules were different.

I think running 460-480 times in 2014 would be more than fine.

I'd love to be Seattle or San Fran on defense. No, I do not aspire to be like their offenses though. I'd like to be more pass oriented with the QB we have. Not saying go back to 2012-2013, where we ran the ball 330-350 times. Just saying I don't want to be a complete ground and pound team like Seattle and SF.

But the beauty of ground and pound is that it protects our weak defense, too. The NO game is the perfect example. Long, time consuming drives that result in points, especially in the first half, are huge. They keep our defense off the field, make the other team's offense more one dimensional, and tire out the other team's defense, making our 2nd half running game that much more effective.

The longer our offense is on the field, the more chance we have of success.