50 dead in mass shooting at Gay Night Club in Orlando

townsend

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This attack wasn't really about religion anyway. It was about another weird asshole who had nothing going on in his life and snapped. I think young men in this country are in trouble. In a world where being an adult man of value seems to be further and further out of reach these days, I think men are having a crisis of identity.

They spent their entire childhood being told they're the chosen one, then they can't even figure out how to live on their own, get a decently paying job, or find someone to love them. There's a reason why all these terrorists are home grown lone wolf types. They're cast offs that have stewed in their anger so long it possesses them.
 

Cotton

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I think people acting in the name of religion can achieve a level of goodness that humans can rarely achieve in the name of secular humanism. The vision of yourself as a part of a greater good, the connection to community, and the will to hold yourself to a higher moral standard can yield amazing benefits.
Morals can be achieved without divine guidance. People and society are just lazy. I can teach my kids good without religion. To me, religion is the biggest form of conformism we have ever seen.
 

Cotton

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This attack wasn't really about religion anyway. It was about another weird asshole who had nothing going on in his life and snapped. I think young men in this country are in trouble. In a world where being an adult man of value seems to be further and further out of reach these days, I think men are having a crisis of identity.

They spent their entire childhood being told they're the chosen one, then they can't even figure out how to live on their own, get a decently paying job, or find someone to love them. There's a reason why all these terrorists are home grown lone wolf types. They're cast offs that have stewed in their anger so long it possesses them.
Second time in just a fees days we have agreed. Stock up on good and supplies, the zombies are coming.
 

Kbrown

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Morals can be achieved without divine guidance. People and society are just lazy. I can teach my kids good without religion. To me, religion is the biggest form of conformism we have ever seen.
How did you learn good?
 

townsend

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Morals can be achieved without divine guidance. People and society are just lazy. I can teach my kids good without religion. To me, religion is the biggest form of conformism we have ever seen.
I'm not bagging on atheism. Just want to acknowledge that religion has helped people become better versions of themself, it has been an amazing tool for good. I think we're losing an amazing tool for community building and socialization. We're gonna miss it when it's gone.
 

Cotton

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How did you learn good?
I am confused by your post. Either you are dogging me for the typo, or you are digging even deeper into my thought.
 

Kbrown

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I am confused by your post. Either you are dogging me for the typo, or you are digging even deeper into my thought.
I meant it straight. Who taught you "good," and what formed their concept of it?
 

Cotton

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I'm not bagging on atheism. Just want to acknowledge that religion has helped people become better versions of themself, it has been an amazing tool for good. I think we're losing an amazing tool for community building and socialization. We're gonna miss it when it's gone.
I am not an atheist. But, to your point, I agree. I think religion can serve a purpose. It does help keep the masses in check. I will leave it at that for now.
 

Cotton

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I meant it straight. Who taught you "good," and what formed their concept of it?
My parents taught me "good". My dad just happened to be a Baptist preacher. His dad happened to be Methodist. I don't think there has to be the religious angle to teach your kids good, though. Or, it hasn't been that way for my family. Maybe I just got lucky.
 

Kbrown

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My parents taught me "good". My dad just happened to be a Baptist preacher. His dad happened to be Methodist. I don't think there has to be the religious angle to teach your kids good, though. Or, it hasn't been that way for my family. Maybe I just got lucky.
Perhaps. Or maybe our concept of "good" is the product of orthodox Christianity's hold on the west.

The specifics of morality, beyond the basics of things like empathy, are not an innate biological trait. Ethics is a construct, and in the West, the genesis of our ethics is as entwined with Christianity as our university system and our basic social order. Do you really think you would have arrived at your precise understanding of the good had you come from a bloodline made up entirely of pagans or Gnostics?

What I fear is that as future generations begin to forget the foundation of Western morality, humans will begin to see much more "what could it hurt?" morality. We already see that people are losing a grip on what makes human life sacred in and of itself. Voluntary suicide and euthanasia are beginning to be applauded. Access to "safe" abortion is a human right.

I just think you are operating on the profoundly negative experiences you've described having with religious people as a child. I don't mean that judgmental at all; we had similar childhoods. But there is value in having a foundation for "good" that is transcendent, because "right and wrong" is subject to change all the time.
 

Kbrown

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This attack wasn't really about religion anyway. It was about another weird asshole who had nothing going on in his life and snapped. I think young men in this country are in trouble. In a world where being an adult man of value seems to be further and further out of reach these days, I think men are having a crisis of identity.

They spent their entire childhood being told they're the chosen one, then they can't even figure out how to live on their own, get a decently paying job, or find someone to love them. There's a reason why all these terrorists are home grown lone wolf types. They're cast offs that have stewed in their anger so long it possesses them.
All true, and sad.
 

townsend

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Perhaps. Or maybe our concept of "good" is the product of orthodox Christianity's hold on the west.

The specifics of morality, beyond the basics of things like empathy, are not an innate biological trait. Ethics is a construct, and in the West, the genesis of our ethics is as entwined with Christianity as our university system and our basic social order. Do you really think you would have arrived at your precise understanding of the good had you come from a bloodline made up entirely of pagans or Gnostics?

What I fear is that as future generations begin to forget the foundation of Western morality, humans will begin to see much more "what could it hurt?" morality. We already see that people are losing a grip on what makes human life sacred in and of itself. Voluntary suicide and euthanasia are beginning to be applauded. Access to "safe" abortion is a human right.

I just think you are operating on the profoundly negative experiences you've described having with religious people as a child. I don't mean that judgmental at all; we had similar childhoods. But there is value in having a foundation for "good" that is transcendent, because "right and wrong" is subject to change all the time.
If that was the case, wouldn't places that have been athiest for a while not already be regressing back into barbarianism? Wouldn't Christianity's more prominent points in civilization be marked with less? Morality is like dieting, there are plenty of ways to figure out how to do it, and plenty of ways to talk yourself out of it.

When it came time to treat people like Christ said, plenty of card carrying Christians will find a way around it. So unless we suffer a literal death of civilization, and the very concept of morality is lost, I don't see the sacred value of life, which scripture is inconsistent at best on, fading away like a receipt in the glove box.
 

Cotton

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Perhaps. Or maybe our concept of "good" is the product of orthodox Christianity's hold on the west.

The specifics of morality, beyond the basics of things like empathy, are not an innate biological trait. Ethics is a construct, and in the West, the genesis of our ethics is as entwined with Christianity as our university system and our basic social order. Do you really think you would have arrived at your precise understanding of the good had you come from a bloodline made up entirely of pagans or Gnostics?

What I fear is that as future generations begin to forget the foundation of Western morality, humans will begin to see much more "what could it hurt?" morality. We already see that people are losing a grip on what makes human life sacred in and of itself. Voluntary suicide and euthanasia are beginning to be applauded. Access to "safe" abortion is a human right.

I just think you are operating on the profoundly negative experiences you've described having with religious people as a child. I don't mean that judgmental at all; we had similar childhoods. But there is value in having a foundation for "good" that is transcendent, because "right and wrong" is subject to change all the time.
You make some excellent points, but I will have to reply tomorrow.
 

Kbrown

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If that was the case, wouldn't places that have been athiest for a while not already be regressing back into barbarianism? Wouldn't Christianity's more prominent points in civilization be marked with less? Morality is like dieting, there are plenty of ways to figure out how to do it, and plenty of ways to talk yourself out of it.

When it came time to treat people like Christ said, plenty of card carrying Christians will find a way around it. So unless we suffer a literal death of civilization, and the very concept of morality is lost, I don't see the sacred value of life, which scripture is inconsistent at best on, fading away like a receipt in the glove box.
It is far too early to tell on any of this. Countries' open adoption of secular humanism as a guiding principle is only a few decades old for the most part. Even in places like the French Republic, people are still religious. It's also telling that thus far successful countries like Sweden have folded concepts like sacrifice for the good of others into their ideals.

It could go the Nietzsche way or the Kirk way. Nietzsche said that after God's death, there would be a period darkness and disorder, followed by a renaissance. Russell Kirk (albeit speaking mainly of art) said that after the loss of the transcendent would be a period of renaissance followed by decay. I guess I am saying wait and see. :art

And of course Christians have been shit at following Christian precepts. I find myself in a living situation frankly cut off from what the church teaches. But it is important to me that it is there.
 

Kbrown

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On the original topic, anyone read the texts a guy sent his mother from the bathroom? Holy shit, that is gut-wrenchingly sad.
 

DLK150

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When it comes to the topic of religion, there are so many different flavors in every major monotheistic religion that all believe something different and interpret their respective scriptures differently. I consider myself a non-denominational Christian, I don't identify with any particular sect. I was raised in a Catholic household and my mother stopped taking me to mass when I started having seizures at the age of five because the priest said it was disrupting services. I converted and identified as a Baptist when I was a teenager. The pastor of the church I attended back in the late 70s/early 80s was booted for embezzling. Around ten years later, one of the deacons from that same church killed his wife, who was the church secretary, then himself. Then you had the Catholic priest scandals. I stopped going to church after that and think "organized" religion in general is BS. I don't GAS what religion someone identifies with and I don't know which one is "right or wrong". Shoot, the bible, koran and torah were all written by men claiming to be interpreting their god's or prophets's words as witnessed or passed down. Every single one of them have been interpreted differently by different sub-sects.

I don't GAS about someone's lifestyle or religion as long as it isn't pushed in my face and doesn't affect me personally. I believe there is some higher power but I just try to abide by the ten commandments. Be honest, be honorable and don't fvck with other people, basically. Is it enough? Shoot, I don't know but I guess I'll find out one day or maybe I won't. That's why I feel that you should let people live their own lives, even if goes against your personal beliefs. If you believe in a god, assuming there is one, it's his job to sort things out, not mine.

I don't give a flying fvck about anything but all those people being killed, probably because the Ahole didn't agree with their lifestyle and was likely a psychopath to begin with along with being a religious zealot. Was he always one? Hell, I don't know. All that matters is that he became one at some point. The MFer was on the FBI radar just a few years ago until he wasn't and with all the fricking constant surveillance going on, that's inexcusable. He evidently worked security at federal buildings for chrissake. He had to go through channels, obtain clearance, background checks, etc. My one brother worked at the Department of Defense for awhile before he retired and before he was hired, all of his family members had to go through background checks, including myself. What is the point of having all these acronym government agencies if they drop the ball again and again?

If this was a KKK member who identified as Christian, which is often the case, shooting up a gay club or anywhere else liberals would be screaming like banshees. They'll screech some more about gun control and recently, when it's a Muslim, they whitewash it. Are all Muslims terrorists? Of course not but if 1 out of say 1,000 is, that's around 1,600,000 too many.

I saw an article that cited someone from law enforcement that said this MFer was part of a white hate group. Really? Seriously? He adheres to a religion that is worshiped in many countries overseas that punish homosexuality by death or is at least illegal. His father, who evidently supports The Afghanistan Taliban, says this isn't about religion. Oh, BS. People have been killing other people in the name of one god or the other for thousands of years, does anyone really believe that has changed much?

Sorry I rambled, I need to get ready for work.

/end rant
//Take it as you will.
 

L.T. Fan

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Sure it was. I don't think it was a coincidence that he was Muslim. A lot of hate and oppression going on in that religion.
I agree it was religiously motivated. Even if the individual wasn't a devout Muslim appearances are that he was affiliated with a group somewhere and the target was a religious motivation.
 

townsend

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Sure it was. I don't think it was a coincidence that he was Muslim. A lot of hate and oppression going on in that religion.
It was the thing that made him feel like he mattered, same way Dylann Roof thought white supremacy did, or the Oregan shooter thought being an atheist did. The issue isn't the man's religion which he didn't fucking practice, it was getting to feel like he was part of something bigger.

It's not practicing members of local Mosques that do this shit, it's lonely man children.
 
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