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Watkins: The Cowboys donít have an elite receiver anymore. How much does that matter?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by ravidubey View Post
    WRs who aren’t dominant still get open all the time. So is the check down back. It doesn’t mean you feed them the football.

    You get the ball to your playmakers, and yes, they will be covered. Hell, Antonio Brown is double-covered.

    Ben still throws him the ball. Dak can’t do it. At least not yet. He’s Mr. Safe. Except when he tries to get force the ball to covered playmakers Dez. That’s when he fucks up.
    FIFY
    2016 DCC LOTY Fantasy Football Champion

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Iamtdg View Post
      FIFY
      So Dakís weakness was all because of Dez. Wow. Well, every Cowboy WR coincidentally fell off the map in 2017. Must have been some kind of bug or something.

      Or or maybe the ordinary QB suddenly lost his extraordinary LT and RB and was fíing exposed. Same things happened to Carson Wentz, btw. Heís very overrated as Nick Foles proved, but he didnít curl into a fetal position like Dak.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by ravidubey View Post
        So Dak’s weakness was all because of Dez. Wow. Well, every Cowboy WR coincidentally fell off the map in 2017. Must have been some kind of bug or something.

        Or or maybe the ordinary QB suddenly lost his extraordinary LT and RB and was f’ing exposed. Same things happened to Carson Wentz, btw. He’s very overrated as Nick Foles proved, but he didn’t curl into a fetal position like Dak.
        Where did I say all of his struggles were because of Dez? Oh, and the rest of the receivers did fairly well last year, as has been comprehensively noted by C-Rock.

        And, yeah, if a QB gets smoked for 8 sacks in a game, I bet it does have a bit of a head game effect.
        2016 DCC LOTY Fantasy Football Champion

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        • #34
          Originally posted by ravidubey View Post
          So Dak’s weakness was all because of Dez. Wow. Well, every Cowboy WR coincidentally fell off the map in 2017. Must have been some kind of bug or something.

          Or or maybe the ordinary QB suddenly lost his extraordinary LT and RB and was f’ing exposed. Same things happened to Carson Wentz, btw. He’s very overrated as Nick Foles proved, but he didn’t curl into a fetal position like Dak.
          If Dez is so good why is he still available?
          2018 DCC Super Bowl Bingo Champion

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          • #35
            Originally posted by ravidubey View Post
            So Dak’s weakness was all because of Dez. Wow. Well, every Cowboy WR coincidentally fell off the map in 2017. Must have been some kind of bug or something.
            Bryant has been turd since his peak prime in 2014.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Iamtdg View Post
              Where did I say all of his struggles were because of Dez? Oh, and the rest of the receivers did fairly well last year, as has been comprehensively noted by C-Rock.

              And, yeah, if a QB gets smoked for 8 sacks in a game, I bet it does have a bit of a head game effect.
              Yeah and Dez hasn't been shit in multiple years. But it's always got to be about Dak.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by boozeman View Post
                Bryant has been turd since his peak prime in 2014.
                Besides the point, really.

                Weíre running a RB led offense without a strong defense.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by ravidubey View Post
                  So Dak’s weakness was all because of Dez. Wow. Well, every Cowboy WR coincidentally fell off the map in 2017. Must have been some kind of bug or something.

                  Or or maybe the ordinary QB suddenly lost his extraordinary LT and RB and was f’ing exposed. Same things happened to Carson Wentz, btw. He’s very overrated as Nick Foles proved, but he didn’t curl into a fetal position like Dak.
                  I would like to think that Dallas was in fact leaning on the running game as their strength but the way it unfolded last season Dallas couldn’t structure a run reliant offense because Elliot was either awaiting for the hammer to drop and Dallas tried to make the passing game work but Dak wasn’t quite there. Elliot eventually did serve his suspension and the running game really didn’t shine. The passing game couldn’t overcome some critical games and Dallas fell out of playoff contention again.

                  Bottom line is that neither the passing game or running game gained much ground last season to be able to identify either side as one you could rely on.
                  Since Day One

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by mcnuttz View Post
                    2014 & 2016 should be a model for this team.

                    With an improved defense, this team has a chance with teh strong running game and hungry WRs stepping up and getting open.
                    I go back and forth.

                    On one hand, I feel like because of the improvements to the run game (Elliott back full time), the OL (Connor Williams over Cooper, Tyron being healthy, better depth with Martin and Fleming), and the defense (2nd year jumps from Woods, Awuzie, Lewis, Byron Jones to corner, adding LVE to LB), it means that we don't need an elite passing game, just an opportunistic and effective one. I feel like Bryant's raw numbers are easily duplicable or can even be improved on (really low end catch% for a #1 WR, only 69 catches, only 800 yards, only 6 TDs; so why can't Hurns do that?). Hurns actually posted a pretty stellar completion percentage of 69% compared to Bryant's 52%, though with only 39 catches instead of 69, but it's not like Hurns had a great QB down there in Jacksonville either, giving him all easy to catch balls. So why can't Hurns, plus Gallup, who seems like he's gonna be good, duplicate what Bryant did? Why can't our passing game be even better despite losing Bryant, who was inconsistent, and Witten, who was extremely consistent, but completely non-explosive?

                    Then on the other hand, I think, no matter how deadly your running game, unless you have a really top notch defense like the Jaguars did (and we probably don't, it's probably good for Cowboys standards but not THAT good), passing is still vital in today's league. Can an offense QB'd by Prescott with no #1 WR to draw attention (Bryant got all the double teams still) and no respected veteran TE to draw attention (Witten was still a main draw of opposing defenses), and featuring a mish-mash of 2/3 WR types at best in Hurns, Williams, Beasley and Gallup, really present more than a mediocre passing game? It would be one thing to have that WR group if Peyton Manning was throwing them open. It's another thing when it's Prescott, a QB who probably needs some sort of help to really thrive.

                    So the best I can say is, we'll see. I can't see us winning the division as the Eagles are probably in charge for the foreseeable future with Wentz at the helm, as he's a stud.

                    Can we get a wild card berth and make noise in the playoffs? I dunno. There are at least 2 playoff caliber teams in every division in the NFC, so wild card competition will be ferocious. We'll see.

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                    • #40
                      For the record, I wouldn't feel that much better about our WR core this year even if it was Hurns/Williams/Beasley/Ridley, instead of Hurns/Williams/Beasley/Gallup. Either way, the rookie is gonna be at the low end of the totem pole for most of the season as he learns.

                      I have always liked Terrance Williams but he is really mucking up the WR depth chart at this point. Progress stopper. Hurns I feel like can be more explosive and more reliable, and he can also play inside or outside, he can do everything. Gallup has potential to be very good. Beasley has shown that he can be deadly in the slot to the tune of 70+ receptions, and even if he doesn't get that many, he can make you pay.

                      Williams is just kind of there. He's just kinda gonna slog his way to 40-50 catches for 500-700 yards and low TD production. He doesn't have the upside of Gallup, the dual threat use of Hurns, or the elite slot potential of Beasley. He can't be a #1, but he's kinda blocking Beasley and Hurns as ideal #2s. But given how much cap space we currently have, how much better would you feel if we had cut Terrance Williams and traded our 2018 4th rounder (Dorrance Armstrong) and our 2019 7th to the Dolphins for Jarvis Landry? That's what the Browns gave up. Landry is no dynamite explosive WR either, but you'd sure feel like he's capable of exceeding what Bryant gave us last year for sure.

                      If we were rolling into 2018 with an WR corps of

                      Landry
                      Hurns
                      Beasley
                      Gallup

                      I'd actually be downright enthusiastic. Landry is not explosive, but he replaces the short and slant dependency stuff that Witten and Bryant were actually still good for.

                      Hurns is then a big improvement on Williams as far as getting downfield and being multidimensional.

                      Beasley is Beasley.

                      Witten is gone, but Gallup as the 4th WR gets way more looks than we previously gave to our fourth WR, so it eats up those TE touches, and then it doesn't really matter if our TE is just a blocking TE.

                      You'd feel good about that.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by mschmidt64 View Post
                        I go back and forth.

                        On one hand, I feel like because of the improvements to the run game (Elliott back full time), the OL (Connor Williams over Cooper, Tyron being healthy, better depth with Martin and Fleming), and the defense (2nd year jumps from Woods, Awuzie, Lewis, Byron Jones to corner, adding LVE to LB), it means that we don't need an elite passing game, just an opportunistic and effective one. I feel like Bryant's raw numbers are easily duplicable or can even be improved on (really low end catch% for a #1 WR, only 69 catches, only 800 yards, only 6 TDs; so why can't Hurns do that?). Hurns actually posted a pretty stellar completion percentage of 69% compared to Bryant's 52%, though with only 39 catches instead of 69, but it's not like Hurns had a great QB down there in Jacksonville either, giving him all easy to catch balls. So why can't Hurns, plus Gallup, who seems like he's gonna be good, duplicate what Bryant did? Why can't our passing game be even better despite losing Bryant, who was inconsistent, and Witten, who was extremely consistent, but completely non-explosive?

                        Then on the other hand, I think, no matter how deadly your running game, unless you have a really top notch defense like the Jaguars did (and we probably don't, it's probably good for Cowboys standards but not THAT good), passing is still vital in today's league. Can an offense QB'd by Prescott with no #1 WR to draw attention (Bryant got all the double teams still) and no respected veteran TE to draw attention (Witten was still a main draw of opposing defenses), and featuring a mish-mash of 2/3 WR types at best in Hurns, Williams, Beasley and Gallup, really present more than a mediocre passing game? It would be one thing to have that WR group if Peyton Manning was throwing them open. It's another thing when it's Prescott, a QB who probably needs some sort of help to really thrive.

                        So the best I can say is, we'll see. I can't see us winning the division as the Eagles are probably in charge for the foreseeable future with Wentz at the helm, as he's a stud.

                        Can we get a wild card berth and make noise in the playoffs? I dunno. There are at least 2 playoff caliber teams in every division in the NFC, so wild card competition will be ferocious. We'll see.
                        We have enough talent if we had a top notch coaching staff who could scheme ways to open up the passing game, similar to the Rams last year.

                        The Rams didn't have any elite pass-catching talent, similar to us they have Gurley and a strong running game, and a decent OL but not one as good as ours when at full strength. Their defense has more name recognition with Donald but they were middle of the pack in terms of points and yards allowed, they were good but nowhere near dominant like the Jaguars.

                        As it is I don't have any faith in Garrett or Linehan to play chess and not checkers when it comes to our offense. I'm sure there will be plenty of wrinkles thrown in and if Elliott/the OL are at full strength things will be fine because the running game will be dominant but never in a million years would I expect the two of them to put something together like Pederson did for the Eagles last year.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Simpleton View Post
                          We have enough talent if we had a top notch coaching staff who could scheme ways to open up the passing game, similar to the Rams last year.

                          The Rams didn't have any elite pass-catching talent, similar to us they have Gurley and a strong running game, and a decent OL but not one as good as ours when at full strength. Their defense has more name recognition with Donald but they were middle of the pack in terms of points and yards allowed, they were good but nowhere near dominant like the Jaguars.

                          As it is I don't have any faith in Garrett or Linehan to play chess and not checkers when it comes to our offense. I'm sure there will be plenty of wrinkles thrown in and if Elliott/the OL are at full strength things will be fine because the running game will be dominant but never in a million years would I expect the two of them to put something together like Pederson did for the Eagles last year.
                          Not saying that the Rams offensive coaches aren't great, but they also have the #1 overall pick at QB. He might be pretty good.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by mschmidt64 View Post
                            Not saying that the Rams offensive coaches aren't great, but they also have the #1 overall pick at QB. He might be pretty good.
                            You mean the guy who everybody thought was a bust after his rookie year?

                            The difference between him and Prescott is negligible at best.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Simpleton View Post
                              You mean the guy who everybody thought was a bust after his rookie year?

                              The difference between him and Prescott is negligible at best.
                              Yeah, I mean the guy who struggled as a rookie -- shocking, that a rookie would struggle, by the way -- and then looked like an All-Pro his second year. Yeah, that guy might be pretty effing good.

                              The difference is not "negligible" in any rational way of looking at it. Goff threw for 3800 yards, a 28:7 TD:INT ratio, and a 100.5 QB ratio with no real top WR targets. He is a rapidly ascending star QB, period.

                              Prescott threw for 3300 yards, a 22:13 TD:INT ratio, and an 86.6 QB rating, also with a WR corps that was mediocre to poor. He took a tremendous step back from his rookie year when everything broke right for him.

                              Their supporting casts are remarkably similar. Not great WR support but excellent RB help.

                              The difference in coaching is definitely tangible, but if you think that simply plopping in Sean McVay makes Dak Prescott a future elite QB on par with where Goff appears to be headed (4000+ yards, 30-40 TDs, under 10 INTs, ie, the Brees/Roethlisberger/Rodgers tier that fell right below Manning and Brady for the past decade), then I simply have to ask what evidence do you have that you think quantifies that?

                              Because if a coach explains that massive difference, then apparently Belichick made Brady, McCarthy made Rodgers, Sean Payton made Brees, etc. Coaching is good, but Wentz and Goff look like superstars. Prescott, even in his rookie year, looked more like a top game manager like Russell Wilson.

                              There's just no credible evidence AT THIS POINT that Prescott is ready to take that leap, whether he has Garrett or any other coach.

                              There's evidence that he can be very good -- but not that he's a top 5, sling it all over the field QB.

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                              • #45
                                Even if Prescott turns out well from here, there really is no way I can foresee that success being more than the variety where he is highly dependent on having a good running game, good defense, good something else, to help him get into the playoffs. He will never be the guy who single handedly elevates you from mediocre to contender. Not even Romo was that, and Romo probably ends up a better passer than Prescott at the end of the day.

                                But Prescott is never gonna be that Rodgers/Roethlisberger/Brees/Manning type, where your team is in the playoffs every friggin' year just cause you are the QB. That's where Wentz and Goff appear headed. I don't think Prescott is on that track.

                                And that's not a huge slam on Prescott. Very few guys are that. If he's Russell Wilson, we'll take that in the fourth round all day long.

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