Watkins: The Cowboys don’t have an elite receiver anymore. How much does that matter?

Simpleton

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I go back and forth.

On one hand, I feel like because of the improvements to the run game (Elliott back full time), the OL (Connor Williams over Cooper, Tyron being healthy, better depth with Martin and Fleming), and the defense (2nd year jumps from Woods, Awuzie, Lewis, Byron Jones to corner, adding LVE to LB), it means that we don't need an elite passing game, just an opportunistic and effective one. I feel like Bryant's raw numbers are easily duplicable or can even be improved on (really low end catch% for a #1 WR, only 69 catches, only 800 yards, only 6 TDs; so why can't Hurns do that?). Hurns actually posted a pretty stellar completion percentage of 69% compared to Bryant's 52%, though with only 39 catches instead of 69, but it's not like Hurns had a great QB down there in Jacksonville either, giving him all easy to catch balls. So why can't Hurns, plus Gallup, who seems like he's gonna be good, duplicate what Bryant did? Why can't our passing game be even better despite losing Bryant, who was inconsistent, and Witten, who was extremely consistent, but completely non-explosive?

Then on the other hand, I think, no matter how deadly your running game, unless you have a really top notch defense like the Jaguars did (and we probably don't, it's probably good for Cowboys standards but not THAT good), passing is still vital in today's league. Can an offense QB'd by Prescott with no #1 WR to draw attention (Bryant got all the double teams still) and no respected veteran TE to draw attention (Witten was still a main draw of opposing defenses), and featuring a mish-mash of 2/3 WR types at best in Hurns, Williams, Beasley and Gallup, really present more than a mediocre passing game? It would be one thing to have that WR group if Peyton Manning was throwing them open. It's another thing when it's Prescott, a QB who probably needs some sort of help to really thrive.

So the best I can say is, we'll see. I can't see us winning the division as the Eagles are probably in charge for the foreseeable future with Wentz at the helm, as he's a stud.

Can we get a wild card berth and make noise in the playoffs? I dunno. There are at least 2 playoff caliber teams in every division in the NFC, so wild card competition will be ferocious. We'll see.
We have enough talent if we had a top notch coaching staff who could scheme ways to open up the passing game, similar to the Rams last year.

The Rams didn't have any elite pass-catching talent, similar to us they have Gurley and a strong running game, and a decent OL but not one as good as ours when at full strength. Their defense has more name recognition with Donald but they were middle of the pack in terms of points and yards allowed, they were good but nowhere near dominant like the Jaguars.

As it is I don't have any faith in Garrett or Linehan to play chess and not checkers when it comes to our offense. I'm sure there will be plenty of wrinkles thrown in and if Elliott/the OL are at full strength things will be fine because the running game will be dominant but never in a million years would I expect the two of them to put something together like Pederson did for the Eagles last year.
 

Smitty

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We have enough talent if we had a top notch coaching staff who could scheme ways to open up the passing game, similar to the Rams last year.

The Rams didn't have any elite pass-catching talent, similar to us they have Gurley and a strong running game, and a decent OL but not one as good as ours when at full strength. Their defense has more name recognition with Donald but they were middle of the pack in terms of points and yards allowed, they were good but nowhere near dominant like the Jaguars.

As it is I don't have any faith in Garrett or Linehan to play chess and not checkers when it comes to our offense. I'm sure there will be plenty of wrinkles thrown in and if Elliott/the OL are at full strength things will be fine because the running game will be dominant but never in a million years would I expect the two of them to put something together like Pederson did for the Eagles last year.
Not saying that the Rams offensive coaches aren't great, but they also have the #1 overall pick at QB. He might be pretty good.
 

Simpleton

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Not saying that the Rams offensive coaches aren't great, but they also have the #1 overall pick at QB. He might be pretty good.
You mean the guy who everybody thought was a bust after his rookie year?

The difference between him and Prescott is negligible at best.
 

Smitty

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You mean the guy who everybody thought was a bust after his rookie year?

The difference between him and Prescott is negligible at best.
Yeah, I mean the guy who struggled as a rookie -- shocking, that a rookie would struggle, by the way -- and then looked like an All-Pro his second year. Yeah, that guy might be pretty effing good.

The difference is not "negligible" in any rational way of looking at it. Goff threw for 3800 yards, a 28:7 TD:INT ratio, and a 100.5 QB ratio with no real top WR targets. He is a rapidly ascending star QB, period.

Prescott threw for 3300 yards, a 22:13 TD:INT ratio, and an 86.6 QB rating, also with a WR corps that was mediocre to poor. He took a tremendous step back from his rookie year when everything broke right for him.

Their supporting casts are remarkably similar. Not great WR support but excellent RB help.

The difference in coaching is definitely tangible, but if you think that simply plopping in Sean McVay makes Dak Prescott a future elite QB on par with where Goff appears to be headed (4000+ yards, 30-40 TDs, under 10 INTs, ie, the Brees/Roethlisberger/Rodgers tier that fell right below Manning and Brady for the past decade), then I simply have to ask what evidence do you have that you think quantifies that?

Because if a coach explains that massive difference, then apparently Belichick made Brady, McCarthy made Rodgers, Sean Payton made Brees, etc. Coaching is good, but Wentz and Goff look like superstars. Prescott, even in his rookie year, looked more like a top game manager like Russell Wilson.

There's just no credible evidence AT THIS POINT that Prescott is ready to take that leap, whether he has Garrett or any other coach.

There's evidence that he can be very good -- but not that he's a top 5, sling it all over the field QB.
 

Smitty

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Even if Prescott turns out well from here, there really is no way I can foresee that success being more than the variety where he is highly dependent on having a good running game, good defense, good something else, to help him get into the playoffs. He will never be the guy who single handedly elevates you from mediocre to contender. Not even Romo was that, and Romo probably ends up a better passer than Prescott at the end of the day.

But Prescott is never gonna be that Rodgers/Roethlisberger/Brees/Manning type, where your team is in the playoffs every friggin' year just cause you are the QB. That's where Wentz and Goff appear headed. I don't think Prescott is on that track.

And that's not a huge slam on Prescott. Very few guys are that. If he's Russell Wilson, we'll take that in the fourth round all day long.
 

Simpleton

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Yeah, I mean the guy who struggled as a rookie -- shocking, that a rookie would struggle, by the way -- and then looked like an All-Pro his second year. Yeah, that guy might be pretty effing good.

The difference is not "negligible" in any rational way of looking at it. Goff threw for 3800 yards, a 28:7 TD:INT ratio, and a 100.5 QB ratio with no real top WR targets. He is a rapidly ascending star QB, period.

Prescott threw for 3300 yards, a 22:13 TD:INT ratio, and an 86.6 QB rating, also with a WR corps that was mediocre to poor. He took a tremendous step back from his rookie year when everything broke right for him.

Their supporting casts are remarkably similar. Not great WR support but excellent RB help.

The difference in coaching is definitely tangible, but if you think that simply plopping in Sean McVay makes Dak Prescott a future elite QB on par with where Goff appears to be headed (4000+ yards, 30-40 TDs, under 10 INTs, ie, the Brees/Roethlisberger/Rodgers tier that fell right below Manning and Brady for the past decade), then I simply have to ask what evidence do you have that you think quantifies that?

Because if a coach explains that massive difference, then apparently Belichick made Brady, McCarthy made Rodgers, Sean Payton made Brees, etc. Coaching is good, but Wentz and Goff look like superstars. Prescott, even in his rookie year, looked more like a top game manager like Russell Wilson.

There's just no credible evidence AT THIS POINT that Prescott is ready to take that leap, whether he has Garrett or any other coach.

There's evidence that he can be very good -- but not that he's a top 5, sling it all over the field QB.
Ok, so ignoring the fact that Prescott had a very similar (if not superior) rookie year to Goff let's just look at the first 8 games before everything with the offense went to shit.

Through the first 8 games of 2017 Prescott was on pace for 3600 yards, a 32:8 TD:INT ratio, 8 rushing TD's and most assuredly a 100+ QB rating.

So what happened here?

Did Prescott turn into a pumpkin halfway through the season while Goff magically transformed into a butterfly under a renowned play-caller?

Or was it just a function of losing Elliott, losing Tyron, general dysfunction throughout the entire offense while Goff's play was propped up by an excellent play-caller?

It's comical that you seem to think Goff has taken some sort of leap to superstar status compared to Prescott, and I honestly don't think Wentz has taken that leap either. It'll all be borne out as we move forward but if you put Prescott in LA or Philly I don't think you'd see significantly different results.
 

Simpleton

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Even if Prescott turns out well from here, there really is no way I can foresee that success being more than the variety where he is highly dependent on having a good running game, good defense, good something else, to help him get into the playoffs. He will never be the guy who single handedly elevates you from mediocre to contender. Not even Romo was that, and Romo probably ends up a better passer than Prescott at the end of the day.

But Prescott is never gonna be that Rodgers/Roethlisberger/Brees/Manning type, where your team is in the playoffs every friggin' year just cause you are the QB. That's where Wentz and Goff appear headed. I don't think Prescott is on that track.

And that's not a huge slam on Prescott. Very few guys are that. If he's Russell Wilson, we'll take that in the fourth round all day long.
Roethlisberger was exactly what you describe in your first sentence for about the first 5 years of his career. And Wentz and Goff haven't shown me anything to think they're on a Rodgers/Brady/Brees trajectory in comparison to Prescott, and I suspect if they weren't the 1st and 2nd picks of their draft you wouldn't either.

Wentz and Goff were both very managed QB's, and that's not to say that I dislike either or that they aren't very talented, but they were both playing in very imaginative passing systems and had throws manufactured for them often.

I mean, was Pederson just sitting on his ass letting Wentz run everything until the injury and then he magically stepped in to create this amazing diverse system that somehow got Foles to play like Joe Montana en route to a Super Bowl win?

No, they were doing much of the same stuff with Wentz, and while Wentz is clearly a great young QB he was still part of a system that manufactured easy throws/reads for him.
 

Smitty

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Ok, so ignoring the fact that Prescott had a very similar (if not superior) rookie year to Goff let's just look at the first 8 games before everything with the offense went to shit.

Through the first 8 games of 2017 Prescott was on pace for 3600 yards, a 32:8 TD:INT ratio, 8 rushing TD's and most assuredly a 100+ QB rating.

So what happened here?

Did Prescott turn into a pumpkin halfway through the season while Goff magically transformed into a butterfly under a renowned play-caller?

Or was it just a function of losing Elliott, losing Tyron, general dysfunction throughout the entire offense while Goff's play was propped up by an excellent play-caller?

It's comical that you seem to think Goff has taken some sort of leap to superstar status compared to Prescott, and I honestly don't think Wentz has taken that leap either. It'll all be borne out as we move forward but if you put Prescott in LA or Philly I don't think you'd see significantly different results.
It was a lot of things, but to say there is "negligible" difference between these two is the only thing that is comical.

There definitely is not just a negligible difference, and what difference there is, is definitely NOT wholly explained by the coaches. It is partially explained by that, but definitely not wholly.

Goff threw 50 ypg more on average than Prescott. This is in a year where Prescott was forced to pick up the slack because Elliott was out. You can say that losing Elliott was a negative factor, and it was in terms of, it should lessen Prescott's overall effectiveness when defenses know he doesn't have Elliott to lean on, they should expect pass more, etc.

But the fact that Prescott could only muster a 207 ypg passing average, in a season in which he did not have Elliott for half the year, tells me a TON about his upside.

He simply is not the type of QB to carry your offense, he is not gonna move your offense up and down the field through the air by himself. 200 yards per game is abysmal in today's league, and it DEFINITIVELY tells that. And what's more, it wasn't just his down year; his rookie year told this story too. His rookie year was highly effective due to efficiency, but there were times, and this complaint was voiced on this board, that he did not appear to have the ability to put up offense-carrying volume, as even his rookie year when he was "great" by all accounts, he only averaged 229 ypg. Then his second year he drops to 207 ypg. So now this isn't just a rookie thing, he actually got worse his second year, in a year where he had every excuse to put up more yards per game without Elliott even if his efficiency went down. Instead, everything went down.

This is extremely, extremely concerning.

Goff averaged 253 per game. The best QBs are all in that 250 and above range, consistently. Under that is average. When you get into the 200 yards per game range, you are in Quincy Carter/Colin Kaepernick "I can't be trusted to move the offense with my arm" territory.

And again, this is a season in which Elliott missed 6 games.

Yes, some of this is on coaching. Maybe a lot of it.

But Prescott as a player, by himself, if he was gonna be an elite QB in the mold of Rodgers/Brees, even Rivers/Romo, needs to IMMEDIATELY show a large uptick in production. Even Romo's much-celebrated 2014, in which his usage was way, way down, he averaged 247 ypg.

Prescott needs to hit that target immediately. This year. Or his shine will be off and I'll be looking for a new QB.

He also needs to get his ypa back up to the high 7s, low 8s range, instead of at 6.8, also not good. You cite Roethlisberger's early stats, but while they were low per game, tellingly, he was so super effective in low usage, that his yards per attempt were an unworldly 8.9 per!!! Prescott's was 6.8. That is a massive tell in terms of their difference in effectiveness.

No, on no planet does Prescott favorably compare to Goff, Wentz, Roethlisberger, or any other elite QB after his second year. It's not to say he can't get there, but he needs to make it happen NOW. What he did last year, PERSONALLY, and not just because of the differences in coaching staff or because of poor WRs, was simply not good enough.

He must be better. And I would trade Prescott and two first round picks for Goff, like, yesterday, if I could.
 

Angrymesscan

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It was a lot of things, but to say there is "negligible" difference between these two is the only thing that is comical.

There definitely is not just a negligible difference, and what difference there is, is definitely NOT wholly explained by the coaches. It is partially explained by that, but definitely not wholly.

Goff threw 50 ypg more on average than Prescott. This is in a year where Prescott was forced to pick up the slack because Elliott was out. You can say that losing Elliott was a negative factor, and it was in terms of, it should lessen Prescott's overall effectiveness when defenses know he doesn't have Elliott to lean on, they should expect pass more, etc.

But the fact that Prescott could only muster a 207 ypg passing average, in a season in which he did not have Elliott for half the year, tells me a TON about his upside.

He simply is not the type of QB to carry your offense, he is not gonna move your offense up and down the field through the air by himself. 200 yards per game is abysmal in today's league, and it DEFINITIVELY tells that. And what's more, it wasn't just his down year; his rookie year told this story too. His rookie year was highly effective due to efficiency, but there were times, and this complaint was voiced on this board, that he did not appear to have the ability to put up offense-carrying volume, as even his rookie year when he was "great" by all accounts, he only averaged 229 ypg. Then his second year he drops to 207 ypg. So now this isn't just a rookie thing, he actually got worse his second year, in a year where he had every excuse to put up more yards per game without Elliott even if his efficiency went down. Instead, everything went down.

This is extremely, extremely concerning.

Goff averaged 253 per game. The best QBs are all in that 250 and above range, consistently. Under that is average. When you get into the 200 yards per game range, you are in Quincy Carter/Colin Kaepernick "I can't be trusted to move the offense with my arm" territory.

And again, this is a season in which Elliott missed 6 games.

Yes, some of this is on coaching. Maybe a lot of it.

But Prescott as a player, by himself, if he was gonna be an elite QB in the mold of Rodgers/Brees, even Rivers/Romo, needs to IMMEDIATELY show a large uptick in production. Even Romo's much-celebrated 2014, in which his usage was way, way down, he averaged 247 ypg.

Prescott needs to hit that target immediately. This year. Or his shine will be off and I'll be looking for a new QB.

He also needs to get his ypa back up to the high 7s, low 8s range, instead of at 6.8, also not good. You cite Roethlisberger's stats, but while they were low per game, tellingly, he was so super effective in low usage, that his yards per attempt were an unworldly 8.9 per!!! Prescott's was 6.8. That is a massive tell in terms of their difference in effectiveness.

No, on no planet does Prescott favorably compare to Goff, Wentz, Roethlisberger, or any other elite QB after his second year. It's not to say he can't get there, but he needs to make it happen NOW. What he did last year, PERSONALLY, and not just because of the differences in coaching staff or because of poor WRs, was simply not good enough.

He must be better. And I would trade Prescott and two first round picks for Goff, like, yesterday, if I could.
Somebody has been catching up on his SBK reading...
 

Smitty

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I am far from the only one on this board who is skeptical of Prescott as an elite QB.

And again, I think even if he develops wonderfully, he is more akin to Russell Wilson than the elite QBs of the league like Rodgers and Brees.

Wentz and Goff both put up stats that look like they are moving that way. Prescott simply has not.

His upside, should he even reach it, because last year was "I need to be replaced" statistically, seems to be high end bus driver to me.

Which there is nothing inherently wrong with. Lots of Super Bowl winners in that status -- look at Joe Flacco, Russell Wilson, Eli Manning even kinda is in that category.

However, it should be concerning that the overwhelming majority of Super Bowl champions the last decade or two are elite QBs. Brady, Peyton Manning, Rodgers, Roethlisberger and Brees practically monopolize the list of Super Bowl wins and Super Bowl appearances.

Prescott just is not on that trajectory right now.

That's not to say he can't win one. Or even more than one.

But come on, the difference is "negligible?" :lol

No.

Again, I'd trade a boatload for Wentz or Goff. Today.

Like, name your price and I'll meet it.
 

Cowboysrock55

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Honestly not having Dez may have a bigger impact on the running game then the passing game. And even then I have my doubts.

Even if you look at Dez and legitimately think he was drawing consistent double teams. That's more about the running game. It takes a man out of the box for us to run the ball. On the other hand when your passing the ball, you're either horribly inefficient throwing into a double team or you pass the ball somewhere else. So who cares if the double team goes to Hurns or Williams or someone else. Then you pass the ball to the other guy. You shouldn't be throwing into a double team regardless. Didn't work with Dez and it won't work with those guys. And obviously if the defense double teams no one the only thing that negatively impacts is the running game.

Same thing goes for the alleged "attention" that Witten got. So no I'm not concerned about the loss of a true number 1 WR or our veteran TE. There is some legit concern that they were holding the passing offense back.

And as far as the Dak/Goff stuff goes. It's funny that they both have one out of two years as really good in their career. But suddenly we are supposed to pretend like 2016 didn't happen and that 2017 is the only Dak we know.
 

Simpleton

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It was a lot of things, but to say there is "negligible" difference between these two is the only thing that is comical.

There definitely is not just a negligible difference, and what difference there is, is definitely NOT wholly explained by the coaches. It is partially explained by that, but definitely not wholly.

Goff threw 50 ypg more on average than Prescott. This is in a year where Prescott was forced to pick up the slack because Elliott was out. You can say that losing Elliott was a negative factor, and it was in terms of, it should lessen Prescott's overall effectiveness when defenses know he doesn't have Elliott to lean on, they should expect pass more, etc.

But the fact that Prescott could only muster a 207 ypg passing average, in a season in which he did not have Elliott for half the year, tells me a TON about his upside.

He simply is not the type of QB to carry your offense, he is not gonna move your offense up and down the field through the air by himself. 200 yards per game is abysmal in today's league, and it DEFINITIVELY tells that. And what's more, it wasn't just his down year; his rookie year told this story too. His rookie year was highly effective due to efficiency, but there were times, and this complaint was voiced on this board, that he did not appear to have the ability to put up offense-carrying volume, as even his rookie year when he was "great" by all accounts, he only averaged 229 ypg. Then his second year he drops to 207 ypg. So now this isn't just a rookie thing, he actually got worse his second year, in a year where he had every excuse to put up more yards per game without Elliott even if his efficiency went down. Instead, everything went down.

This is extremely, extremely concerning.

Goff averaged 253 per game. The best QBs are all in that 250 and above range, consistently. Under that is average. When you get into the 200 yards per game range, you are in Quincy Carter/Colin Kaepernick "I can't be trusted to move the offense with my arm" territory.

And again, this is a season in which Elliott missed 6 games.

Yes, some of this is on coaching. Maybe a lot of it.

But Prescott as a player, by himself, if he was gonna be an elite QB in the mold of Rodgers/Brees, even Rivers/Romo, needs to IMMEDIATELY show a large uptick in production. Even Romo's much-celebrated 2014, in which his usage was way, way down, he averaged 247 ypg.

Prescott needs to hit that target immediately. This year. Or his shine will be off and I'll be looking for a new QB.

He also needs to get his ypa back up to the high 7s, low 8s range, instead of at 6.8, also not good. You cite Roethlisberger's early stats, but while they were low per game, tellingly, he was so super effective in low usage, that his yards per attempt were an unworldly 8.9 per!!! Prescott's was 6.8. That is a massive tell in terms of their difference in effectiveness.

No, on no planet does Prescott favorably compare to Goff, Wentz, Roethlisberger, or any other elite QB after his second year. It's not to say he can't get there, but he needs to make it happen NOW. What he did last year, PERSONALLY, and not just because of the differences in coaching staff or because of poor WRs, was simply not good enough.

He must be better. And I would trade Prescott and two first round picks for Goff, like, yesterday, if I could.
Is a difference in 20 yards passing per game really significant to you when the TD stats are still there?

Prescott was right around 225-230 per game before Elliott went out, and for some reason you seem to be arguing that without Elliott, and a generally average at best OL without Tyron, that Prescott should have improved on his stats?

Obviously Prescott's play over the last 8 games was bad, but I'm going to put more stock in the previous 24 games and not the 8 games where the offense as a whole completely collapsed, unless of course you want to put the blame on Prescott and not the absence of Elliott, the decline of the OL without Tyron and the general inability to adjust on the part of the coaches.

To assume that those 8 games define Prescott to this point and that the previous 24 were just some magical run based on perfect circumstances (they weren't, especially over the first 8 of 2017) is ridiculous.
 

Simpleton

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Honestly not having Dez may have a bigger impact on the running game then the passing game. And even then I have my doubts.

Even if you look at Dez and legitimately think he was drawing consistent double teams. That's more about the running game. It takes a man out of the box for us to run the ball. On the other hand when your passing the ball, you're either horribly inefficient throwing into a double team or you pass the ball somewhere else. So who cares if the double team goes to Hurns or Williams or someone else. Then you pass the ball to the other guy. You shouldn't be throwing into a double team regardless. Didn't work with Dez and it won't work with those guys. And obviously if the defense double teams no one the only thing that negatively impacts is the running game.

Same thing goes for the alleged "attention" that Witten got. So no I'm not concerned about the loss of a true number 1 WR or our veteran TE. There is some legit concern that they were holding the passing offense back.

And as far as the Dak/Goff stuff goes. It's funny that they both have one out of two years as really good in their career. But suddenly we are supposed to pretend like 2016 didn't happen and that 2017 is the only Dak we know.
No, only the last 8 games of 2017 is the Dak that we know, because over the first 8 games he was statistically equal to or better than 2016.
 

Smitty

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Is a difference in 20 yards passing per game really significant to you when the TD stats are still there?
When taken in conjunction with the low ypa, yes. And again, it's not like the 225-230 is anything to write home about.

TD stats are great, but at the end of the day, the elite offenses of the world rely on the pass to move up and down the field. The elite QBs do this, and that's why their offenses are always unstoppable and elite, and thus why their teams are always elite. Heck, the best QBs average 270-300 ypg.

This isn't Aikman 1992 era NFL football. Passing for 200 ypg and 15-20 TDs isn't an indication that your team is simply run heavy.

I was off the Kaepernick bandwagon waaaaaay out in front of everyone else, even when he was in the Super Bowl that year, I was like, "that QB is no good." The telling sign to me was that I never got the sense that he was proficient at moving the ball in the air. He'd make plays with his legs, his run game was good, his defense gave him the ball in good spots, and he was opportunistic, at the time -- but my eyes were backed up when I checked his stats and saw he was averaging 191 yards passing per game. Quincy Carter was the same. Remember how fucking awful our offense was? The days when we just couldn't do anything? Even in 2003, when he was simply bad and not awful. Right about 200 ypg.

200 ypg is the mark of a QB who is struggling to move the ball in the air. It's a dead giveaway.

Yes, Elliott was out. That should mean more passing attempts, though, but then more incompletes and more interceptions, less efficiency, but still more yards, because we should have been relying on him to pick up Elliott's slack. The fact that he dropped 20 ypg from an already unimpressive number his rookie year is EXTREMELY concerning. It means he was not able to fill the void when called upon to be the prime mover of the ball.

Does bad coaching explain this? Partially. But most good second year QBs are gonna be able to start filling up the stat sheet. Even Roethlisberger, who as you said, only averaged like 200 ypg his sophomore year, well, he averaged an ungodly 9 ypa. That's insane. That means he didn't pass much, but when he did, he was REALLY moving the ball in large chunks.

Prescott was not doing that, he had neither high totals nor high averages.

There is just nothing to suggest this guy is on pace to be an elite QB right now. For all the bitching about Garrett, Garrett fucking knew how to get 270 yards per game out of Romo, didn't he? So if he knew that, and Prescott was capable of it, why isn't he getting it out of Prescott?

Maybe, just maybe, Prescott is missing something.

Again, I think Prescott can be good. Maybe very good. His efficiency was excellent his first year and when things get back to normal (as in the first half of the season before Elliott was suspended) he may be solid, as he was early 2017. But even then, again, 230 ypg? Not good enough.

Try getting up to 250 like Romo in 2014. That, when paired with a top rushing attack, becomes lethal.

When it sinks to 207 yards per game, that's stagnant. Awful. Replacement level.

And again, Garrett isn't THAT bad. He knows how to pass the ball. There were factors working against Prescott, but if he had it in him, he'd be amassing more yards.

He doesn't look like a Brees or Rivers or Romo at this point. He's more like Flacco or Wilson.... and he still has lots of growing to get there.

At this point, it's not a 0% chance that he devolves into Kaepernick. A guy that the league figures out can't chuck the ball around.

Prescott was right around 225-230 per game before Elliott went out, and for some reason you seem to be arguing that without Elliott, and a generally average at best OL without Tyron, that Prescott should have improved on his stats?
He should have increased his yardage totals, yes.

Obviously Prescott's play over the last 8 games was bad
Yes, exactly.

HIS play was bad. This is reflected by his 207 yards per game passing.

I'm not saying that's his end destination. But as of this point, nothing has convinced me he's more than 230 ypg Dak Prescott either.

Which can still be a good QB.

But come on. When Goff can throw more TDs, less interceptions, and WAAAAAY more yards, all while maintaining a way superior QB rating and QBR, with similar mediocre receivers.... that is NOT explained all by coaching.

There is way more than a "negligible" difference between the two.

To assume that those 8 games define Prescott to this point and that the previous 24 were just some magical run based on perfect circumstances (they weren't, especially over the first 8 of 2017) is ridiculous.
I'm not saying those 8 games define him.

I'm saying even "good" Prescott that we've seen, again, if you read my previous post, I said,

"His rookie year was highly effective due to efficiency, but there were times, and this complaint was voiced on this board, that he did not appear to have the ability to put up offense-carrying volume, as even his rookie year when he was "great" by all accounts, he only averaged 229 ypg."

This was a concern to some of us already. He did not really improve on it even in early 2017. Then his 8 game skid came, in a period of time that an improving, ascending all star QB would have taken on more of the load and carried the team to, at the very least, more yardage production, even if his overall efficiency went down because of increased usage and teams keying in on the passing game.

But that didn't happen. Everything was down.

It's very concerning. And does not indicate a player who is about to become a superstar.

Because, simply put, to be a superstar QB who is capable of carrying his team to the playoffs in good times and bad, he's gonna have to become a 250+ ypg QB.

And he's not shown signs of that. Yet.
 

Cowboysrock55

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No, only the last 8 games of 2017 is the Dak that we know, because over the first 8 games he was statistically equal to or better than 2016.
By the way QBR is also a great rating system. It's a much better system for determining the liklihood of what a QB is doing translating to wins.

Dak was fourth in the NFL last year in that statistic. The guys above him you may ask? Tom Brady, Case Keenum and Carson Wentz.
 

Simpleton

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I also enjoy the cherry-picking of stats, "When you get into the 200 yards per game range, you are in Quincy Carter/Colin Kaepernick "I can't be trusted to move the offense with my arm" territory."

Roethlisberger was under 200 YPG the first 2 years of his career, but his YPA was 8.9 so it's all good.

Oh, and he barely even cracked 200 YPG in Years 4 and 5, and never exceeded 240 YPG until Year 6, but I'll be god damned if I'm going to judge anything except for the last 8 games Prescott played in 2017.
 

Smitty

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I also enjoy the cherry-picking of stats, "When you get into the 200 yards per game range, you are in Quincy Carter/Colin Kaepernick "I can't be trusted to move the offense with my arm" territory."
That's not cherry picking, that's basically a fact with minimal exceptions. 200 ypg on the whole does not cut it for top tier NFL QBs.

Even naming Ben Roethlisberger as the exception to that rule doesn't get you very far, because again, Roethlisberger was simply a bus driver at that point in time, which is exactly what I called Prescott.

Roethlisberger has since become way, way more than that, something I was very clear that I was not RULING OUT for Prescott.

However, most indications are that he's not going that route.

Roethlisberger was under 200 YPG the first 2 years of his career, but his YPA was 8.9 so it's all good.
I don't know why you are mocking that, it's a valid point. Roethlisberger's low ypg shows low usage, not low effectiveness. His otherworldly YPA proves this.

Prescott's low ypg is somewhat low usage -- he's in a run first offense -- but also has shown low effectiveness. 2017 in particular.

2016, it was more low usage, as Prescott's ypa was high. Very competent number of 8.0.

Last year, it was bad at 6.8. Given his decline in ypg, given a time when his passing yards should have been increasing to make up for Elliott's loss, this is painting a picture.

A picture that only doesn't concern you if you are burying your head in the sand.

Oh, and he barely even cracked 200 YPG in Years 4 and 5, and never exceeded 240 YPG until Year 6, but I'll be god damned if I'm going to judge anything except for the last 8 games Prescott played in 2017.
I guess you think sarcasm and ignoring what I'm saying is some sort of substitute for having a legit point.

I made it very clear that I'm not simply judging Prescott on the last 8 games. This has been a career long concern for him, and it got worse in an 8 game stretch in which SOME of his numbers should have been improving. Numbers that cannot possibly be only placed at the feet of the coaching staff.

And again, none of this is to imply he cannot improve and become a very good QB.

But the stats, as of right now, do not bear out a top end elite QB projection by any RATIONAL interpretation. More likely, a Flacco/Wilson type projection --- and last year, he was not even as good as a good year from those two.

Given all this, to take it back to the original point of contention, it is simply wrong to say there is only a "negligible" difference between Prescott and Goff at this point. Prescott is a QB who looks like he has a ton of growing left to do. Goff looks like he's primed to throw for 4000 yards and 30 TDs next year.
 

Simpleton

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And Prescott looked like a QB who was primed to throw for 4000 yards and 30 TD's after 2016, and he was on pace to get near that over the first 8 games of 2017. Goff had one great year where the offense manufactured easy throws/reads for him, just like Prescott had in 2016, just like Wentz had last year. They're all very talented to varying degrees but you act like Wentz/Goff are on a HOF path while Prescott is on the verge of being run out of town, it's ridiculous at best.

I get what you're saying as far as carry over concerns from 2016 based on the surrounding cast but it's laughable to throw out Roethlisberger as an example of an "elite" QB who progressed so quickly into what he is today when in his 5th year he averaged 206 YPG on nearly 500 attempts with 17 TD's/15 INT's and a 7 YPA.

It tells me that you're being way too hard on Prescott and elevating other QB's in your mind, likely because of draft position and the fact that Prescott is the QB you root for.
 

Smitty

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And Prescott looked like a QB who was primed to throw for 4000 yards and 30 TD's after 2016, and he was on pace to get near that over the first 8 games of 2017.
No, he was not, he was only on pace for 227 ypg the first 8 games, which comes out to 3600. That's on the low end of ok these days, but it's not elite. It's not the type of guy who can move the ball up and down the field enough to be that "every year in the playoffs" type of QB.... the Roethlisberger, Brees, Brady, Manning, Rodgers group (who combine the requisite yardage with high end efficiency).

That alone remains concerning, but again, would be projecting that, if he improved a little, he'd be in that Russell Wilson range. Wilson has been right about 250 ypg in the last couple of years, which is where I am roughly putting the cutoff for being in the group of relatively high end ability to move your offense up and down the field through the air. But he STILL has to improve over his first 8 games of 2017 to get to that.

Then, his 8 game slide -- which again, I'm not "judging" him on only -- but the 8 game slide did happen, and it's concerning, because he should have been able to increase his ypg from 227, not see a decrease to 207. That slide puts him in POOR QB territory, and guess what? He was a poor QB over the final 8 games of the season. Lots of factors there explain that, but HIS OWN BAD PLAY was one of them -- as you even already admitted.

Meanwhile, Goff basically hit 250 last year and I'd be shocked if he doesn't blow by that number this year to more like 270.

You cannot keep dismissing these stats.

Prescott simply MUST reach 240-250 ypg through the air this year, or he will be in trouble, the team will be in trouble, and the coaching staff will be in trouble. Our running game is so good that he probably doesn't have to be a 300 yard per game passer or even like Romo and hit 270-280. But for this team to take the next step, and have a good passing game to complement a lethal running game, he has to get up to 240-250, in that range. The rest of his efficiency, he has shown he possesses. Good touchdown rates, a competent INT rate, good completion percentage, the ability to have a good ypa (from his rookie year).

But he has to put it all together and actually become more proficient at picking up chunks of yardage through the air, more consistently. Some of that is coaching, but some of it is on him. Don't tell me that Garrett doesn't know how to get a QB to throw the ball around, he only did it with Romo for forever.

If Prescott only averages 220-230 ypg next year, we will most likely miss the playoffs, and it will be time to draft another QB.

Goff had one great year where the offense manufactured easy throws/reads for him, just like Prescott had in 2016, just like Wentz had last year. They're all very talented to varying degrees but you act like Wentz/Goff are on a HOF path while Prescott is on the verge of being run out of town, it's ridiculous at best.
Goff showed development and last year turned in a season that was better than either of Prescott's years. There is an arrow trending up for him, same as Wentz, before he was injured.

Prescott showed amazing consistency that had many putting him in the conversation right there with Wentz and Goff as "who is the most valuable young QB in the league" after their rookie years, but he backslid last year, period. And even in the first 8 games, he did not show the same growth.

Saying "Well now they each have had one good year and one bad year" isn't seeing the forest for the trees. Goff has to build off what he had working last year and the success will come, because the stats are already in the acceptable range. Meanwhile, Prescott had improvement that he needed to accomplish and not only did he not get there, but he actually got worse. It's always harder to change your career's trajectory than simply keep it pointed in the same direction.
 
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