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  • #16
    Originally posted by boozeman View Post
    We are in a no-man's land. It sucks.

    Ridley.

    Vander Esch.

    Hernandez.

    Payne:

    Moore:

    Evans:
    Pretty much. The draft's depth at WR (and the time they typically take to develop), really makes me want to wait until the 3rd for one.

    Ridley and Evans and Vander Esch are two sides of the athleticism coin for me. Concerned that Ridley and Evans are not athletic enough, and Vander Esch's athleticism hasn't translated to production as much as might be expected.

    Payne is all potential with no track record of production.

    Given what is likely to be left at that point, I would rather trade down, get our starting guard in the mid-20s, and get a pick we could package to move up later on.

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    • #17
      I'd give a 3rd to get Vea, barring that I'd prefer Hernandez, Moore, Vander Esch, Riddley in that order.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by GShock View Post
        Pretty much. The draft's depth at WR (and the time they typically take to develop), really makes me want to wait until the 3rd for one.
        A valid take.

        Originally posted by GShock View Post
        Ridley and Evans and Vander Esch are two sides of the athleticism coin for me. Concerned that Ridley and Evans are not athletic enough, and Vander Esch's athleticism hasn't translated to production as much as might be expected.
        This is pretty inaccurate.
        Ridley is a 4.4 guy so he's plenty fast. Not a jumper though.
        Evans is athletic as hell. His issue is he's a guesser and is often a beat slow to decide where he's going. His draft profile describes him as:
        - Build like new breed of NFL linebackers
        - Possesses good length and great speed
        - Premium athlete with plus agility, range and explosiveness
        Vander Esch had 141 tackles, 91 unassisted, 4 sacks, 2 picks. Productivity isn't even close to a problem for him. He's only a one year starter though. He also has some trouble working his way through trash. Last 1st round LBers aren't flawless.

        Originally posted by GShock View Post
        Payne is all potential with no track record of production.
        That's a bit much. He produced, he was second team all SEC with 53 tackles, one sack, one interception, three pass break-ups. He also was a total monster in the championship game. He was the defensive MVP (and the prior game as well). So he's not a bum but you could argue he has not been consistent throughout.

        Originally posted by GShock View Post
        Given what is likely to be left at that point, I would rather trade down, get our starting guard in the mid-20s, and get a pick we could package to move up later on.
        Not a bad approach.
        I was on the draft LVE train. I was for trading for Amari before it happened.
        'nuff said

        Comment


        • #19
          Vander Esch was also the MWC DPOY, and Payne's game against Georgia wasn't just monstrous, it was like a damn highlight reel. His ability to rush the passer is more potential than production, although he is much quicker off the ball than I expected, but he is ready-made to dominate against the run and is certainly much more than just potential in that regard.

          I've been saying for a while now though that trading down would be our best bet if we can do it, there are a bunch of guys I'd be happy with at 19 but none that I truly love. If we can pop down about 8-10 spots and grab an extra Day 2 pick I'd be very happy.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Simpleton View Post
            Vander Esch was also the MWC DPOY, and Payne's game against Georgia wasn't just monstrous, it was like a damn highlight reel. His ability to rush the passer is more potential than production, although he is much quicker off the ball than I expected, but he is ready-made to dominate against the run and is certainly much more than just potential in that regard.

            I've been saying for a while now though that trading down would be our best bet if we can do it, there are a bunch of guys I'd be happy with at 19 but none that I truly love. If we can pop down about 8-10 spots and grab an extra Day 2 pick I'd be very happy.
            Who will people be dying to come up and get though? Probably not the guys we're targeting. Maybe Connor Williams or Mike McGlinchey? The QBs will be gone.
            I was on the draft LVE train. I was for trading for Amari before it happened.
            'nuff said

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by lostxn View Post
              Who will people be dying to come up and get though? Probably not the guys we're targeting. Maybe Connor Williams or Mike McGlinchey? The QBs will be gone.
              Who knows?

              Maybe someone gets desperate for a QB and they trade up for Lamar Jackson who is rumored to be a lock to go in the 1st now. Perhaps a CB like Jaire Alexander or Josh Jackson, maybe a RB like Guice.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Simpleton View Post
                Vander Esch was also the MWC DPOY, and Payne's game against Georgia wasn't just monstrous, it was like a damn highlight reel. His ability to rush the passer is more potential than production, although he is much quicker off the ball than I expected, but he is ready-made to dominate against the run and is certainly much more than just potential in that regard.

                I've been saying for a while now though that trading down would be our best bet if we can do it, there are a bunch of guys I'd be happy with at 19 but none that I truly love. If we can pop down about 8-10 spots and grab an extra Day 2 pick I'd be very happy.
                I disagree on Payne. I saw almost no penetration with him and I think his power get overrated. I think he ends up a mediocre starting NFL NT. Just very overrated. Watch game film of the guy. It's not impressive at all. Hell most of the tackles he made were 5 yards down field. I'd rather Senat actually. Sometimes guys being ranked high make me scratch my head. That's how I feel on Payne. No idea why he is a first rounder.

                I'm with you now on Vander Esch. I actually think he gets knocked unnecessarily. Was an absolute star last year.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cowboysrock55 View Post
                  I disagree on Payne. I saw almost no penetration with him and I think his power get overrated. I think he ends up a mediocre starting NFL NT. Just very overrated. Watch game film of the guy. It's not impressive at all. Hell most of the tackles he made were 5 yards down field. I'd rather Senat actually. Sometimes guys being ranked high make me scratch my head. That's how I feel on Payne. No idea why he is a first rounder.

                  I'm with you now on Vander Esch. I actually think he gets knocked unnecessarily. Was an absolute star last year.
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELTFWbNjl38

                  This guy does a pretty fair analysis of Vander Esch. Made me cool a bit on him. I do think his problems are something he can grow out of given his youth. However, he's not the total stud his stats might have you believe.
                  I was on the draft LVE train. I was for trading for Amari before it happened.
                  'nuff said

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cowboysrock55 View Post
                    I disagree on Payne. I saw almost no penetration with him and I think his power get overrated. I think he ends up a mediocre starting NFL NT. Just very overrated. Watch game film of the guy. It's not impressive at all. Hell most of the tackles he made were 5 yards down field. I'd rather Senat actually. Sometimes guys being ranked high make me scratch my head. That's how I feel on Payne. No idea why he is a first rounder.

                    I'm with you now on Vander Esch. I actually think he gets knocked unnecessarily. Was an absolute star last year.
                    I watched Payne vs. Clemson, Georgia and I believe Tennessee. I don't think he'll ever be a great interior pass-rusher and I certainly don't think he's a guy you want as your best 3-T, but he is clearly excellent against the run and I have seen flashes of an excellent first step where he gets off the snap much quicker than his teammates. He also shows good hand use/counter moves with effective swim and rip moves, he just doesn't do it consistently.

                    To me he's clearly a 1-T who can possibly grow into giving you some pass-rush out of that position, similar to Vea. Vea has a higher ceiling but I wouldn't be surprised at all if they end up playing very similar roles and being fairly similar caliber of players.

                    I mean, I'm not going to delude myself into thinking he's a 3-T like the Cowboys might try to sell us if they take him, but everybody here is on board with drafting a high caliber 1-T who can stuff the run and that's what Payne is. Could we get a guy like BJ Hill, Settle or Nnadi on Day 2?

                    Perhaps, and I'd probably prefer that even, but I also recognize that Payne can bring a very similar impact to what people envision Vea bringing.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lostxn View Post
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELTFWbNjl38

                      This guy does a pretty fair analysis of Vander Esch. Made me cool a bit on him. I do think his problems are something he can grow out of given his youth. However, he's not the total stud his stats might have you believe.
                      I feel like that video is a little nit picky. I mean the guy is literally taking on a block and part of a tackle and the guy is complaining that Vander Esch didn't take on the blocker better. Or a play where Vander Esch is filling the hole that he is supposed to and the RB bounced it outside and scored. That's not the LBer's fault.

                      The video didn't really get me down on him at all. Frankly that's stuff you'd see with any elite LBer. I will say there are some technique things he could change to be even better though. He isn't soft but he needs to use his hands more. I don't like how he initiates contact with his shoulder and not his arms. It's a technique thing that could definitely get corrected though.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Simpleton View Post
                        To me he's clearly a 1-T who can possibly grow into giving you some pass-rush out of that position, similar to Vea. Vea has a higher ceiling but I wouldn't be surprised at all if they end up playing very similar roles and being fairly similar caliber of players.
                        Payne dances way too much. Drives me nuts watching the guy because on pass plays he will sit there and play patty cake at the line of scrimmage instead of getting up field and making a play. And maybe that's just a result of the 2 gap stuff that Alabama does. But it's brutal to watch and shows off no ability. I feel like people are assuming if the guy can do it in a couple of games he can always do it. But I've got a whole season of video that tells me he can't. It's crazy to me think of him as a first round pick. I don't even like him as a great 1 technique. I'm not going to say outright I think he will be a bust but I don't think his name is going to be up there with any top DT's in the NFL. I'm guessing he is a guy who bounces around the NFL.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cowboysrock55 View Post
                          I feel like that video is a little nit picky. I mean the guy is literally taking on a block and part of a tackle and the guy is complaining that Vander Esch didn't take on the blocker better. Or a play where Vander Esch is filling the hole that he is supposed to and the RB bounced it outside and scored. That's not the LBer's fault.

                          The video didn't really get me down on him at all. Frankly that's stuff you'd see with any elite LBer. I will say there are some technique things he could change to be even better though. He isn't soft but he needs to use his hands more. I don't like how he initiates contact with his shoulder and not his arms. It's a technique thing that could definitely get corrected though.
                          I think that's right. I like the player for us.
                          I was on the draft LVE train. I was for trading for Amari before it happened.
                          'nuff said

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