Game Day Chatter Thread | Week 4 | Cowboys @ Saints | 09/29/19

[UncleMilti]

 

[boozeman]

You have awakened the Garrett homer Kraken. It was pretty dormant for a while.

 

[Smitty]

Schmitty, it's pretty obvious that you're a Garrett shill. You're in here admonishing people for the things they are saying about him, how they don't know the game plans, what in game adjustments are made, etc... Always jumping to his defense whenever something ill is said about him.

Yet you said those very same things about Wade Phillips. Do you claim to know all those things when he was here? Or did you just not like him and what was happening on the field with the team at the time?

I wasn’t claiming Wade “always loses to inferior opponents” or “does nothing” or “always got outcoached” literally every loss.

My opinion on Wade was based on his admitted lackadaisical approach to coaching and discipline and the fact that it tanked him in every stop with very little success. At least as a head coach. I hated him, but I did not show up after every loss to shit on every single decision he made that may or may not have cost us that week.

Garrett, meanwhile, apart from his first three rebuilding seasons of 8-8, has managed to produce a team that has sustained a relatively successful and talented run. He appears to be headed for 4 playoff appearances in 6 years and at least one of the years was RELATIVELY excusable as they lost the only competent QB on the roster. So the two situations are really nothing alike.

That being said, in my very last post, I said, if your position is that he simply hasn’t won big and you don’t think he ever will, then that is a fair position and one I’m not gonna put up much if any resistance to. But that’s not what was said in this thread that generated the argument. It was the nonsense (completely unsubstantiated, once again) that “Garrett got outcoached again like he always does.”

Nope. Wrong.

 

[Rev]

 

[Smitty]

I’m sure there are stats to back up the fact that Garrett normally loses to teams we shouldn’t lose to. I’m too busy to look them up, or actually know where to find them. But I’m not the only one who has claimed it. Plenty of guys who dig into numbers and report on that kind of thing have voiced it too.

At the end of the day anyone who watches the Cowboys games knows Garrett shits the bed in big games. If he didn’t, wouldn’t we have won more than a couple playoff games? Wouldn’t he have been to the playoffs more times? Would he not be signed to another contract? Is he the WORST? No, you can argue that for sure. Is he below average, or even average? Sure if that makes you feel better to phrase it that way. He’s 40% in the playoffs.

Again, no one is denying the fact that he hasn’t made it to a championship game. Where your argument spins off into delusion is the presumption that this is somehow inferior to the majority of his peers.

Again, not that you said it, but the prevailing sentiment generally espoused by you and others like you is as jsmith said the other day: “I’d take Arians over him.” Why? His record is no better than Garrett’s.

Because he got to one championship game once? That means he is forever the better coach? The rest of his record including decency is decidedly inferior.

Its all subjective. Garrett is part of a large quantity of average NFL coaches, to which most belong, including the likes of previously celebrated on this board Ron Rivera, Dan Quinn, and Brice Arians. Any critical analysis of these coaches would probably yield very similar if not exactly similar deficiencies regarding underperformance, losing to underdogs, baffling game management and game plan decisions, etc. You just haven’t mentally catalogued them because you aren’t watching them every week. In the absence of numbers though, you have no argument. Anecdotes. That’s all.

 

[Smitty]

To some that's just evidence of Garrett's greatness. But if you watched both guys the difference is obvious.

I agree with you so I don’t know who you are referring to. Jimmy was an all time great and his post season success got him there. Garrett is relatively average and his lack of post season success places him there.

But he’s certainly better than most of the other coaches even in our own division. His results speak for themselves in comparison to the never ending treadmill found elsewhere among coaching ranks. He has the team on a sustained trajectory of at least competing for division championships, even if he’s topped out at that level. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[NoDak]

You have awakened the Garrett homer Kraken. It was pretty dormant for a while.

 

[boozeman]

You are a true asshole.

And if you are, you will accept my compliment.

 

[boozeman]

The Schmitty hypothesis once again for those that may have missed it back in the day.

It is perfectly fine to tolerate substandard coaching if there appears to be no "improvements" on the market.

On the market is an important thing.

Nevermind that Josh McDaniels crashed and burned. Tree!

At the end of the day, it is pretty much a no-win scenario.

It is highly unlikely anyone can have the skins on the wall he demands.

As a result, it is perfectly acceptable to have the flagship franchise of the league to Marvin Lewis-itself.

 

[Smitty]

The Schmitty hypothesis once again for those that may have missed it back in the day.

It is perfectly fine to tolerate substandard coaching if there appears to be no "improvements" on the market.

On the market is an important thing.

Nevermind that Josh McDaniels crashed and burned. Tree!

At the end of the day, it is pretty much a no-win scenario.

It is highly unlikely anyone can have the skins on the wall he demands.

As a result, it is perfectly acceptable to have the flagship franchise of the league to Marvin Lewis-itself.

Wrong on a few counts. The coaching isn’t “substandard.” It’s very standard.

But the “high wall” of replacement, I’ve even suggested a replacement to target. There are not a ton of options, but if I got news that they were looking in that direction, I’d say that’s smart.

 

[UncleMilti]

Again, no one is denying the fact that he hasn’t made it to a championship game. Where your argument spins off into delusion is the presumption that this is somehow inferior to the majority of his peers.

Again, not that you said it, but the prevailing sentiment generally espoused by you and others like you is as jsmith said the other day: “I’d take Arians over him.” Why? His record is no better than Garrett’s.

Because he got to one championship game once? That means he is forever the better coach? The rest of his record including decency is decidedly inferior.

Its all subjective. Garrett is part of a large quantity of average NFL coaches, to which most belong, including the likes of previously celebrated on this board Ron Rivera, Dan Quinn, and Brice Arians. Any critical analysis of these coaches would probably yield very similar if not exactly similar deficiencies regarding underperformance, losing to underdogs, baffling game management and game plan decisions, etc. You just haven’t mentally catalogued them because you aren’t watching them every week. In the absence of numbers though, you have no argument. Anecdotes. That’s all.

I would take Arians just from the offensive side of the ball, but I’d agree he’s probably not much better than Garrett.

We can argue the point all day. No I don’t have numbers but I know what I see, and the majority of posters here would agree that Garrett fails miserably in big games and is a avg coach at best.
And I’m sure somewhere out there in Cowboy land some has the numbers you seemingly need to prove (eye roll) that Garrett is a subpar coach. Just like many other teams have. Difference is I’m a Cowboys fan so I couldn’t care less about what other coaches do. I just know that 10 years of Garrett has produced 2 playoff wins and many frustrating moments as a Cowboys fan.

 

[Smitty]

I’m suggesting what you claim to see is misleading without context. Garrett obviously fails in comparison to Belichick and Payton, but the big game frustration you say Garrett has doomed us to in spades is actually common for about 80% of franchises.

I woukd submit that literally about three or four plays are all that separates Garrett from being considered one of the league’s better coaches. The Dez no-catch and, say, beating GB again in 2016, even with losses in the championship the following week, would have Garrett probably considered a coach on the cusp of a championship run.

 

[UncleMilti]

The Schmitty hypothesis once again for those that may have missed it back in the day.

It is perfectly fine to tolerate substandard coaching if there appears to be no "improvements" on the market.

On the market is an important thing.

Nevermind that Josh McDaniels crashed and burned. Tree!

At the end of the day, it is pretty much a no-win scenario.

It is highly unlikely anyone can have the skins on the wall he demands.

As a result, it is perfectly acceptable to have the flagship franchise of the league to Marvin Lewis-itself.

I’ll need numbers to back this up or it’s anecdotal.

 

[UncleMilti]

I’m suggesting what you claim to see is misleading without context. Garrett obviously fails in comparison to Belichick and Payton, but the big game frustration you say Garrett has doomed us to in spades is actually common for about 80% of franchises.

I woukd submit that literally about three or four plays are all that separates Garrett from being considered one of the league’s better coaches. The Dez no-catch and, say, beating GB again in 2016, even with losses in the championship the following week, would have Garrett probably considered a coach on the Hong therof a championship run.

That’s really reaching there. Garrett made a couple blunders in that game that probably had a bearing on the outcome.

Ill just leave this here:
Dallas vs Green Bay, Divisional Round, 2016


Then we have the final seconds of the team’s heartbreaking 34-31 defeat to the Green Bay Packers in the divisional round of the 2016 season. I wrote about it extensively. Remember, Dallas had trailed 21-3 in the first half, leaving them with an 8% likelihood of winning.

And yet, with 0:44 seconds remaining in the game those same win probability calculations gave the Cowboys a 76% likelihood of winning. The Cowboys, despite facing unchartered territory had fought back to put themselves into position to win the game.

(Dallas) managed to find themselves with the ball at the Packers 40 yard line with one timeout, 49 seconds remaining and down 3 points.

And it was at this point the Cowboys made their last of a half dozen mental mistakes that, in aggregate, cost the team a very achievable victory.

This particular mistake has been discussed quite a bit already. At that point these are the three Cowboy’s objectives in decreasing order of importance:

Gain position to kick game-tying FG

Insure Packers are not allowed enough time to kick game-winning FG

Score touchdown to win game

Now, you could argue that list should look like:

Gain position to kick game-tying FG

Score touchdown to win game

Insure Packers are not allowed enough time to kick game-winning FG

But with 49 seconds AND a timeout AND the recognition you can’t leave significant time on the clock, the play-calling that followed was inconsistent and, in my opinion, misguided. The first down spike to stop the clock left Dallas with 2 plays to gain 10 yards, 49 seconds and a timeout. They then ran two pass plays, both stopping the clock, to take only 5 seconds off the clock and leave the team’s timeout unused.

This is simply inefficient use of clock and timeout resources. Had Prescott not spiked the ball but instead called a play...10-12 seconds likely runs off the clock, leaving the team with 35 or so seconds and wherever the ball ended up. This would have been the safest route as far as insuring the Packers wouldn’t have time left over as it would have removed approximately 15 of the remaining 49 seconds.

Had the team instead taken their timeout they would have had 3 plays to move the ball the needed 10 yards. This would have been the most aggressive approach as far as thinking touchdown as they would have had a full 49 seconds and a 1st down situation.

Instead, by taking the spike, Dallas found themselves needing a few yards to insure a field goal and only two plays to gain those yards. They then used two pass plays, which gained the yards for a FG attempt, but not a first down and taking only five seconds off the clock. The 3rd down call, in particular, was a poor decision. The team needed only 3 yards for a 1st down and still had a timeout in pocket. A rushing attempt was just as likely to gain the first down as a pass AND had the added benefit if it came up short of forcing Green Bay to use one of their two remaining timeouts. The combined decisions to spike the ball on first down and throw a pass on 3rd down were simply not smart.​

The Green Bay game was different in that Garrett’s issue wasn’t a lack of aggression, it was simply a failure to optimize the situation, another Garrett trademark .

 

[Cowboysrock55]

Wrong on a few counts. The coaching isn’t “substandard.” It’s very standard.

But the “high wall” of replacement, I’ve even suggested a replacement to target. There are not a ton of options, but if I got news that they were looking in that direction, I’d say that’s smart.

Correct me if I'm wrong isn't your position that Garrett is better than most? He just falls below a few elite coaches?

 

[Cowboysrock55]

The Schmitty hypothesis once again for those that may have missed it back in the day.

It is perfectly fine to tolerate substandard coaching if there appears to be no "improvements" on the market.

On the market is an important thing.

Nevermind that Josh McDaniels crashed and burned. Tree!

At the end of the day, it is pretty much a no-win scenario.

It is highly unlikely anyone can have the skins on the wall he demands.

As a result, it is perfectly acceptable to have the flagship franchise of the league to Marvin Lewis-itself.

I've always said the unknown is better than when you know a guy doesn't have it. You'll either find a failure or you'll hit on the next McVay but you won't know if you don't try to improve.

 

[NoDak]

You are a true asshole.

And if you are, you will accept my compliment.

It's what I do.

And I always strive to improve my craft.

 

[jsmith6919]

I've always said the unknown is better than when you know a guy doesn't have it. You'll either find a failure or you'll hit on the next McVay but you won't know if you don't try to improve.

It's best to just rip off the bandaid. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, we know what Garrett is. He's basically a politician, a subpar x's and o's guy who at best is a motivator

 

[data]

Coach of the Year 2016.

Id like to see Bruce Arians and Ron Rivera achieve that.

 

[yimyammer]

The Schmitty hypothesis once again for those that may have missed it back in the day.

It is perfectly fine to tolerate substandard coaching if there appears to be no "improvements" on the market.

On the market is an important thing.

Nevermind that Josh McDaniels crashed and burned. Tree!

At the end of the day, it is pretty much a no-win scenario.

It is highly unlikely anyone can have the skins on the wall he demands.

As a result, it is perfectly acceptable to have the flagship franchise of the league to Marvin Lewis-itself.

As an aside, I don't believe any coach jeri would allow to be hired is going to have any success (ie win a SB), he'll be pigeon holed into the castrated role jeri has spent years constructing which undermines any coaches effort to do their best. This is only made worse by having his spawn permeate the entire organization including acting as minders to their coaching staff as they try to do their jobs. I dont think there's a coach on the planet willing and able to overcome the albatross to winning that is jeri jones

Garrett knows this system better than anyone and might be the best person to excel within these constraints, despite qualities I don't like and think are counterproductive to winning